Fisk of New York, Forney, Forsyth, Gaston, Geddes,
Gourdin, Griffin, Grosvenor, Hanson, Harris, Has-
brouck, Hawes, Hopkins of Kentucky, Hubbard, Hul-
bert, Ingersoll, Ingham, Irving, Kent of New York,
Kent of Maryland, Kerr, Kershaw, Kilbourn, King of
North Carolina, Lefferts, Lewis, Lovett, Lowndes,
Lyle, Markell, McKee, McKim, McLean, Montgomery,
Moore, Oakley, Ormsby, Parker, Pearson, Pickens,
Piper, Rea of Pennsylvania, Rich, Robertson, Sage,
Sevier, Sherwood, Shipherd, Skinner, Smith of New
York, Strong, Sturges, Tannehill, Taylor, Telfair,
Thompson, Üdree, Ward of New Jersey, Webster,
Wilson of Pennsylvania, Winter, Wright, and Yan-
cey-93.

OCTOBER, 1814.

it is presumed that Norton himself was the purchaser. It appears, also, to the committee, from the certificate of Generals Wilkinson and Dearborn, that the charge against the petitioner was not well founded. He then received an order from General Wilkinson for his horse, to be delivered to him clear of the expense of keeping; but, upon application, found that he had been sold to pay that expense. The petitioner asks of Congress the value of the horse.

The committee are of opinion that the United States are under no legal obligation to pay for the horse; if the petitioner had a good title to the property, it is presumed he would be entitled to recover his value of the man in whose possession he was placed by the officer. Having been put in his possession upon conditions, and with instructions to keep him at public expense, it is believed he was not liable to be sold for that expense; they therefore recommend the following

Resolved, That the prayer of the petitioner ought not to be granted.

NAYS-Messrs. Barbour, Bard, Baylies of Massachusetts, Bowen, Boyd, Bradbury, Burwell, Champion, Cilley, Clopton, Crawford, Davenport, Desha, Ely, Eppes, Evans, Franklin, Gholson, Glasgow, Goodwyn, Hale, Hall, Hawkins, Humphreys, Hungerford, Jack-resolution : son of Rhode Island, Jackson of Virginia, Johnson of Virginia, Kennedy, King of Massachusetts, Law, Macon, Moseley, Nelson, Newton, Pitkin, Pleasants, Post, Potter, John Reed, William Reed, Rhea of Tennessee, Ringgold, Ruggles, Schureman, Seybert, Sharp, Smith of Virginia, Stanford, Taggart, Vose, Wheaton, Wilcox, and Wilson of Massachusetts-54.

So the resolution was agreed to, and this, to gether with the other resolutions, were referred to the Committee of Ways and Means, to bring in bills accordingly.

SATURDAY, October 29.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Navy, stating that the whole of the books, papers, trophies in his office, except the furniture, were preserved, and are now entire; and that all the books and papers in the Accountant's Office, except those papers relative to accounts settled and transmitted to the Treasury Department, have been preserved.

Mr. YANCEY, from the Committee of Claims, made a report on the petition of Moses Alley; which was read, and the resolution therein contained was concurred in by the House. The report is as follows:

Mr. CLOPTON, of Virginia, introduced into the House, with a few appropriate observations, the following resolution:

"It being a duty particularly incumbent, in a time of public calamity and war, humbly and devoutly to acknowledge our dependence on Almighty God, and to implore his aid and protection: Therefore,

"Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That a joint committee of both Houses wait on the President of the United States, and request that he recommend a day of public humiliation, prayer, and fasting, to be observed by the people of the United States, with religious solemnity, and the offering of fervent supplications to Almighty God, for the safety of these States; his blessings on their arms, and a speedy restoration of peace."

The resolution was twice read, and referred to a Committee of the Whole.

The House resumed the consideration of a resolution offered a few days ago by Mr. TAYLOR of New York, which was agreed to in the following words:

Resolved, That the Standing Committees of this House, and also the select committees appointed on the 21st day of September last, on the Message of the Pres ident United States, have leave to report by bill or

otherwise.

THE WAYS AND MEANS.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill to authorize a loan not exceeding dollars.

That, at the declaration of war against Great Britain, and for some time previous thereto, the petitioner was an inhabitant of Upper Canada; in the Summer or Autumn of the year 1812, he came to the United States and reported himself to General Dearborn, who then commanded on the Northern frontier. Being considered of suspicious character, he was arrested by military authority, and sent to Greenbush, in New York, Mr. EPPES, of Virginia, moved to fill the blank for examination; at the time of his arrest, he had in for the amount to be borrowed, with three milhis possession a sorrel stud-horse, which was, by direc- lions. The Secretary of the Treasury had recomtions of the officer who arrested him, placed in the pos-mended, in his letter, a larger sum to be borrowed; session of a Mr. Benjamin Van Vleek for safe-keeping, at the expense of the United States, until he should receive further orders how to dispose of him. He kept the horse until the 16th of April, 1813, when, having had his house and property consumed by fire, he delivered the horse over for safe-keeping to a Mr. Norton, of Lewis county. He kept him until September, 1813, when he sold him, at the price of twenty dollars, to pay for his keeping. It does not appear to the committee who was the purchaser; but, from the manner in which the account for keeping the horse is credited,

but since that letter had been written, it was ascertained that three of the six millions of stock proposed to be sent to Europe for sale had not yet left the country, and the President had determined to retain it. The retention of this stock from the market would, by so much as its amount, reduce the additional amount necessary to be authorized. It was therefore determined to ask only for three millions on this occasion.

The blank was filled accordingly.

Mr. GROSVENOR, of New York, moved to amend the bill by adding thereto the following proviso: "Provided, also, That the making the loan authorized by this bill, the President shall in no case and in no way contract for a greater interest or premium than eight per cent. per annum."

H. of R.

rance of public policy-who had shown an incapacity for all fiscal operations, and had delivered themselves and their country, bound hand and foot, into the iron grasp of money lenders, he was totally unwilling, nay, he thought it madness, to trust unlimited powers as to further loans.

Sir, said Mr. G., you have rejected in Committee a proposition to render your taxes responsible for your loans, by pledging them specifically to the payment of the interest, and the gradual redemption of the principal. You are adopting the same old principles, and pursuing the same old course, which has produced the evils of the past year. You are again pledging the faith of the nation, instead of the wealth of the nation, to obtain loans. The Secretary of the Treasury has told you, and wisely told you, that this has been the cause of your failures-the principle which has destroyed your credit and ruined your finances. And he has told you that your system must be changed, or all your efforts are hopeless. Why will you disregard his admonition-an admonition enforced by the most disastrous experience? By this bill your President again appears in the money market, precisely as he appeared on the 31st of last August; can he get money on better terms now than he could then? Nay, is not the prospect darker and more desperate? And may he not, nay, will he not, pressed on by the public creditors and the public necessities, be induced to give almost any premium rather than fail? Unless his power be limited, he will again deliver the people as unresisting victims to the brokers and money lenders of the nation. Sir, to this I, as one, never will consent. Wishing, as I do, to preserve the remnant of public credit; anxious as I am to give my vote to provide for the defence of the soil. I cannot vote for this bill in its present shape. I cannot vote for it, because I am certain that by it you will obtain no money, but on terms extortionate, ruinous, and which will give the last blow to the expiring credit of the nation.

Mr. GROSVENOR said, he had offered the amendment in the belief, nay, the certainty, that public credit and confidence would never be restored to any Government which supplied the treasury by loans, at the rate, and in the manner heretofore adopted by the President. To former bills similar amendments had been moved and rejected, and what had been the consequence? Let gentlemen cast their eyes upon the report of the Secretary of the Treasury at the commencement of the session. The Government had, under a bill just like the present, gone into the market for twenty-five millions. It first proposed for a part of that sum, to wit: ten millions. As it was well understood, by the influence of one man, a condition had been annexed to the ten millions then taken, of a most ruinous and extortionate character. That condition he need not state, because it was known to all; nor should he go over the calculations made the other day by his honorable friend from New York, (Mr. ÓAKLEY.) If that gentleman was correct, and not a doubt existed that he was so, this very condition had forced the Government to take another portion of the loan, about two millions and a half, at more than fifty per cent. for the present year of its existence, and at six or seven per cent. forever thereafter. How could this condition operate differently? It made it the interest of every holder of the first part of the twenty-five million loan (and it was certain that, as far as possible, every moneyed man in the nation would be made a holder) to bear down upon the Government, and for them to give the most exorbitant premium for all that remained to be taken. This was early foretold by the men of reflection among us. But it was treated as a chimera, as the common story of opposition, by those whose business it is to defend every act of the Mr. EPPES said he had no idea that a larger Government. Now, the truth of what was foretold interest than eight per cent. would or ought to be is absolutely certain. It stands on the official given for this money, and he did not feel any great documents in this House, an eternal monument objection to the amendment. But he could see of the wild errors, and the fiscal incapacity of no reason, when this bill was merely intended to your Government. By it the people of these supply the amount sent to Europe for sale of the States have been subject to the most frightful ex-loan last authorized, why it should be granted in tortion. Do I therefore accuse those who forced the Government to these terms? No; for to such a condition was the Government reduced in September, that even an open bankruptcy must have followed, but for the money then obtained. And if these money lenders had so pleased, you must have saved the nation by giving cent per cent for every dollar. Patriotism has nothing to do with this subject. It is a moneyed operation; and thus considered, perhaps you ought to thank the lenders that they accommodated you at all, rather than to curse them for the terms they demanded.

Mr. G. said, to a Government which had thus exhibited an utter disregard of the plainest rules of discretion and common sense-an entire igno

a different form from that.

Mr. JACKSON, of Virginia, said that gentlemen were mistaken in the calculation of the rate of interest given by the Government for the loans lately negotiated. They were obtained at seven and a half per cent. wih a bonus, payable whenever the debt was extinguished, of twenty-five per cent. on the money loaned. This was demonstrable by a plain question in the rule of three. For example, the Government for eighty dollars issued a scrip for one hundred bearing six per cent. interest. If, therefore, eighty dollars gives six dollars of interest, one hundred dollars will give seven dollars and a half, or seven and a half per cent. As to the bonus, if it be divided on twelve and a half years it will make two per cent., if on twenty-five

H. OF R.

The Ways and Means.

OCTOBER, 1814.

years one, and if a hundred, only one fourth per tended solicitude which his remarks produced in cent. The term of twelve years, specified in the a certain quarter, when the sentiment had been contract, is a limitation of the right of the Gov- avowed by one of the leaders of Opposition, and ernment to redeem within that period; not an applauded by them, that the Federal party would engagement to pay at the expiration of it. It not be bound to pay the interest on the debt inwas inserted at the instance and for the benefit curred by the Government, although they enterof the stockholders, who being disposed to make tained no doubt of soon supplanting the men in an investiture in the funds, preferred a deferred power. Mr. J. said these remarks were merely payment to a speedy redemption, for the obvious incidental to the argument concerning the rate of reason that induces men of wealth to prefer a bank, interest given. He was of opinion that those disor other moneyed institution, with an unlimited advantageous contracts were in a great degree or extensive charter to any other, viz: that there owing to the spirit of opposition, whereby the will be no necessity for an early re-investiture, or capitalists of the country were prevented from a loss by the want of employment for their capi- entering into competion with the men who contal. No one will pretend to say that the Govern- tracted for the late loans, and not to the want of ment is legally or morally bound to repay the confidence in the good faith and ability of the capital advanced in twelve years, or in one hun- nation. As to the pledge in the mode proposed, dred years, or a hundred centuries, provided it pays Mr. J. said, he had insuperable objections. The punctually the accruing interest. Such an obli- taxes designated were novel in this country; gation to pay in twelve years, would require the some of them were very high, and others were most oppressive system of taxation. It cannot be denounced by the gentlemen as oppressive. He denied that the persons who loaned the last money would not entail these upon the people, and deto the Government made the most exorbitant prive the nation of the advantages which experiexactions. The state of the country imperiously ence might afford to substitute others for them, demanded money at any price; and they rose or if the revenue were ample dispense with them in proportion to the pressure. As we were not altogether. It was urged, said Mr. J., that the bound, he would not pay off the capital of that money lenders require a more solid security than debt, until every other contracted upon better the pledge of the national faith; they prefer speterms was extinguished, unless it was selling cific pledges, and the case of a mortgage by an under par in the market, and they would, in that individual was mentioned as analogous. Mr. J. way, relinquish a portion of their spoils. This said, that the obvious dissimilarity consisted in could be done by changing the mode of borrow-this: Where an individual executed a mortgage, ing, and instead of a bonus, increase the rate of interest. Give, if necessary, eight per cent. as was done by a former Administration, for future loans, and it would be made the duty of Government to pay them off first, which was the practice in relation to the eight per cent. and six per cent. stock heretofore. It would be recollected (Mr. J. oberce a compliance-it had only to repeal the law served) that when the old debt was assumed, a large portion of it was deferred and three per cent. stock, and the Secretary of the Treasury had been authorized to pay off those three per cents. at sixty-eight dollars per centum. This was never complained of; the holders were under no compulsion to take less than cent per cent., and if they receive their interest for ever, the contract of the Government was fulfilled. So, if the present six per cents fall below par, there would be immorality in employing agents to purchase them at a discount. If the principal were due, such a measure would be a breach of faith, but until it becomes payable there was no impropriety in buying the stock at market price; and it could not be pretended that a change of the mode as proposed would be derogatory to the spirit of the existing contracts. Among all the objections urged against the eight per cent. loans, no one ever suggested this; and hence it may be fairly asserted that it would be untenable. Whatever might be his opinion as to the conduct of the money lenders, Mr. J. declared he would faithfully perform the contract made with them by paying the interest on their loans quarter-yearly, even if it were necessary to quadruple the contemplated taxes; and he expressed some surprise at the pre

he transferred all control over his property to a third party, and in default of payment, the courts of justice interposed and delivered over his property to the mortgagee or a purchaser. Not so with the Government; there was no physical control vested in an independent tribunal to co

to defeat the security, and there was no restraint upon this power but the moral sense of the Government, which it was said cannot be relied on. Mr. J. said it was not necessary that the faith of the Government should be pledged, in terms, by any law or contract. The passage of a law vesting a right, or conferring a power, was a pledge in fact that the right should be preserved and the power, when executed, be irrevocable and obligatory; but, inasmuch as that phraseology had been used he would not object to it. With these views Mr. J. said he could not imagine that a formal pledge of funds to meet the engagements of the Government was in any case necessary; inasmuch as the good faith of the nation was pledged to make good its engagements, and, having never been violated, it was not suspected by any. Yet, he added, as some gentlemen argued differently, and it might by possibility have an influence on the price of stock, he was willing to vote for an amendment whereby the taxes proposed should be pledged until an equivalent security was substituted for them.

The question on Mr. GROSVENOR's amendment was decided affirmatively, as follows: For the amendment 59, against it 58.

Mr. OAKLEY, of New York, then moved a fur

OCTOBER, 1814.

The Ways and Means.

H. of R.

ther amendment, viz: to strike out the general Mr. HANSON's remarks were as follows: pledge of public faith to make good any deficiency Mr. H. observed, he now felt the same relucin the funds for payment of the principal and in- tance in presenting himself to the Chair which terest of this loan, and insert in lieu thereof, a he always felt, condemning, as he did, the exampledge of the proceeds of the direct tax and in-ple of daily and constantly, upon all subjects, conternal duties for that purpose: For the motion suming the time, and trespassing upon the pa41, against it 71. tience of the House.

The bill having been further immaterially amended, the Committee rose and reported the bill.

The House having confirmed the amount of three millions to be borrowed, the question offered itself on the concurrence with the Committee of the Whole, in agreeing to Mr. GROSVENOR's amendment; on which question the yeas and nays were demanded by Mr. GROSVENOR.

On this motion there arose a long and desultory debate, in the course of which the motion was `opposed by Messrs. LowNDES, GHOLSON, CALHOUN, WRIGHT, and KILBOURN, and supported by the mover, and Messrs. HULBERT, GASTON, and HANSON.

As so much had been said about union and patriotism, he saw fit distinctly to notice these topics, at the same time that he reprobated the course about to be adopted to relieve the Treasury, somewhat, in its embarrassments. Mr. H. trusted that on this, as on all other occasions, his nature would show itself to be utterly irreconcilable, and his principles openly at war, with the meanness and duplicity which would act a part to gain a name for magnanimity, and attract vulgar and insincere applause for patriotism. Patriotism! in the modern acceptation of the term, the very sound was hateful and grating to his ears. From the day of the first dawn of reason and philosophy in France, the loudest patriots in every country, On the one hand, it was argued, that such a visited by the revolutionary mania, had always limitation as was proposed was inexpedient be- been the boldest traitors. They were ever ready cause it was unusual; because it would have the to sell, for their twenty pieces of silver, themselves effect rather to increase than limit the rate at or their country to the highest bidder. It was the which the loan could be had; and because, by a brawling demagogues who drove the profitable remote possibility, it might prevent the loans be- trade of patriotism, and lived upon its avails, that ing had at all, and thus, as this loan was only ne- had plunged the country into a wasteful, bloody, cessary to meet the reimbursement of public debt and calamitous war; who had brought upon the during this quarter, produce consequences ruinous country the sufferings and burdens which bowed to the public credit. Occasion was taken to rebut it down to the very dust it was biting, and jeothe statements made by Mr. OAKLEY the other pardized its very political existence. Such men day in relation to the terms of the late loan, and were the curse of every country that contained to vindicate in the warmest terms the conduct of them. It had been well said, by a moral essaythe Executive in this respect. Occasion was also ist, that patriotism had become the last refuge of taken to state several facts, among which were a scoundrel. From the accusation of such patthese that the interest which this Administra-riotism he meant at least to deliver himself. tian had given for money was less than had been given by the Federal Administration under circumstances which afforded incomparably greater facility for loans; that notwithstanding all the clamors against the credit of the nation, it is now better supported, by a sinking fund, &c., than it was in the days when those were in power who now decry it; and that the refusal of a Boston bank lately to pay the interest of the public debt in specie, arose from no fault of the Government, which then had in the vaults of that bank three times the amount which was there due.

[Mr. H. was called to order by a member, who erroneously took to himself, particularly, the general denunciation of the great body of patriots in the country.]

Mr. H. would admit no man in the nation to be before him in an ardent desire to provide the means for defending the country. The proper course being taken to effectuate the object which all professed to have at heart, he was as anxious and as ready as any gentleman to co-operate in the necessary measures to restore and support public credit, and resuscitate the finances. UnOn the other hand, it was said, that the late less public credit was revived, and the Treasury improvidence of the Administration made it ne- relieved, it was idle to talk of defending the councessary to provide such a guard over their conduct. try. Money was the great sinew of war. WithThe consequence of what he called fiscal gam-out it the invader could not be repelled, the counbling, it was said by one speaker, (Mr. HANSON,) had been to throw the country into the arms of speculators; to make the Government the victim of such men as Jacob Barker, who, it appeared by the documents had been unable to fulfil his engagements, and he believed that failure was the foundation of this loan. To insure the cooperation of those who spoke thus, and the confidence of the country, it was said to be necessary to give some pledge that the Government would change its course, and no longer trust itself in the hands of extortioners, &c.

try could not be defended. It was mockery to talk of defending the country, without providing the means, but that defence and protection must be extended equally to all parts of the Union. Mr. H. was as ready as any gentleman to expose his person and spill his blood in defence of his country; could he, then, be disposed to withhold money for the same purpose? Life and treasure were not to be weighed against each other. He would vote for the loan, provided gentlemen would not continue to disregard and set at naught the established maxims of all well regulated Governments.