danger to the state, on the first appearance | hon. friend near him, and as another of a military force, and indeed exhibited noble friend of his had thrown down the so little principle of coherence, that a gauntlet on 'that subject, it would be ún. magistrate of that district, with a single necessary for him to enter into any obdragoon, pursued and arrested thirty or servations in regard to them. The House forty of them. In Yorkshire, he knew would, however, feel that this was the of his own knowledge, and there was not first time in a period of profound peace, a magistrate who would not say, that the when no danger from abroad menaced our danger was much greater, that there was security, that the ministers of the Crown much more of local outrage, much more had ever called for the suspension of the of disposition to break the peace, in Habeas Corpus act. He never could 1812, when nobody thought of suspendo consider the recurrence to such a meaing the Habeas Corpus. Much better sure as the suspension, under such cir. would it be that the costs and damages of cumstances, as justifiable. But if the any actions that might be brought for suspension of that law was unadvised, recent excesses of authority, should be under what pretext could ministers now paid out of the secret service fund, than claim a bill of Indemnity? Should that that the people should be deprived of their claim be sanctioned, he feared the House just and hereditary rights. Thinking, and the country must prepare themselves therefore, as he did, that the grounds for frequent renewals of those violations on which the present bill was proposed of the rights of the subject. He much had not been satisfactorily established, he feared that, if now adopted, it would be was the more averse to its passing into a hereafter frequently resorted to; there law, on account of the precedent which being unfortunately, a feeling of disreit would set to future times. He was spect in the people's minds towards that confident that the present bill would never House, which was fostered by the inato have been required of the House, but for tention with which the House treated the the bill of 1801 ; and there was therefore petitions of those whom they represented. great reason to apprehend that, some few So long as these unconstitutional pracyears hence, a bill of a similar descrip- tices were adopted, the same irritation and tion might be justified by a reference to discontent would continue to prevail, and the present. The

necessary consequence a similar pretence often present itself for of passing such measures must be to les suspending the rights of individuals. sen the

respect of the people at large for Whilst such a state of circumstances the laws, by showing them, that those existed, there never would be wanting laws did not always distribute a common pretexts and occasions to stifle the public measure of justice, and afford redress for voice on the reports of committees nomiinjuries to all men indifferently.

nated by ministers to judge of their own Mr. Brand said, that on a question of acts. If he could be persuaded that the such high constitutional importance, he powers bestowed by the Suspension act should feel regret in giving a silent vote, had been mildly exercised, he should not particularly as it was probable that from be disposed to withhold his assent from circumstances, he should not be able to the present measure; but he could derive avail himself of the opportunity of dis- no satisfaction from the reports of comcussing the measure in its future stages. mittees nominated by ministers themIf he wanted additional reasons for his selves. He was not convinced-as the strong opposition to any farther proceed- House ought to be before they passed a ing with this bill, he found them in the law of this nature-that the proceedings speech of the hon. and learned gentleman under the act were justifiable, as well as who submitted it that night to the consi- the mode subsequently pursued of securderation of the House. When that hon. ing themselves against the consequences and learned gentleman land such stress of them. The bill under consideration upon the precedents on which he ground- indemnified, or rather protected, not only ed his proposition, he begged the House the secretary of state, but all magistrates to pause, before it added another, and on and gaolers, for every thing done by such comparatively weak reasons, to that virtue of the suspension of the Habeas number. In his opinion, those precedents Corpus. The proper description of the were not applicable to the circumstances bill appeared to him to be, a bill för de. of the present time; but as that part of priving the people of England of the the subject had been so ably argued by his benefits of law. 'He concurred with his hon. friend who spoke last, that it would, which were not made legal by the legisla. be better to pay such damages as might ture. He could see no reason for indem, be recovered, out of the secret service nity, if ministers acted in the spirit and money, than to preclude the people from within the limit of the law. There could all legal redress. Such enactments were be no reason in asking for such a measure, unknown to the old law of the country, unless from the consciousness of their and he still trusted that a provision would' powers having been abused. Why did be introduced to enable the individuals in not ministers call for powers commensuquestion to obtain some compensation. rate with the nature of the evil, when He did not think ministers had cleared they applied to parliament last session ? themselves from the suspicion of having If the provisions of the suspension law abused the powers intrusted to them, nor were too limited, why did they not get a could public opinion be satisfied with the parliamentary sanction to extend them? reports of committees so constituted as ' It was material too, to remark, that, in those were upon whose authority this, the preamble of this bill, there was one measure was founded. He had no parlia. distinction which did not occur in any mentary information to warrant him in former measure of this description, exexcluding from their legal, hereditary cept in the bill of 1801, namely, the rerights, any portion of the people of Eng-cital as to the disclosure of evidence; land. The bill appeared to him to be one and in the year 1801, it was introduced not of indemnity but of injustice; and, and passed on account of the actual state viewed as a measure for taking away the of the country. But it was impossible to liberties of the people, ought to be re- believe that, in every one of the cases of jected by those who professed to represent the persons who had been arrested, it them.

would be dangerous to disclose the Mr. Marryat observed, that he had grounds on which he was apprehended. voted against the Suspension act, and he Whatever some gentlemen might think of looked back with considerable satisfaction this question, he should always maintain, to this vote, which he thought every that the House had no right to deprive an subsequent event had tended to justify. Englishman of his legal remedy, unless a Every person who had since been con- very strong case was made out. They victed, had been convicted in the ordinary would not be justified on any other course of the law. The question now, grounds in acceding to this bill. His however, was, whether ministers had view of the case was this that the acts abused the powers with which they were of his majesty's ministers, which were invested, or whether they had acted upon done illegally, ought to be inquired into. them with discretion and moderation ? 'He The Commons of England were bound thought that the government had de. to institute an inquiry not only to satisfy manded those powers from a conviction in themselves, but also to convince the countheir minds of the necessity of the case ; try; and such an inquiry should be conand while he took credit to himself for ducted in a very different manner from any the vote which he had given, he was that had yet been instituted. equally bound and willing to give credit Mr. Fremantle said :- Although I do to those who had proposed the introduc- not think the arguments already advanced tion of that measure. From what he had against this bill have had great force, yet heard, he could find no ground whatever I am anxious to take this opportunity of to charge his majesty's ministers with any offering my public opinion in favour of it. abuse of authoriiy, and therefore he saw I am anxious to do so, to preserve my no cause to induce him to withhold from own consistency, to maintain the characthem an act of indemnity. For these ter and dignity of the House of Conimons, reasons, although he had voted against and to do justice to those who have exethe suspension of the Habeas Corpus cuted the powers entrusted to them by act, he should now vote for the bill of the legislature in the course of the last Indemnity;

session of parliament :-when I say that Lord Althorp said, that his view of the the arguments do not appear to me to case was very different from that of the have great weight, I mean, Sir, to apply hon. and learned gentleman. The only that observation as in reference to the ground, in his opinion, on which the mi- bill now before the House; for I cannot nisters could claim a bill of Indemnity but think that all arguments relating to the was, that they had exercised powers dangers which existed at the time the

a

legislature thought proper to adopt those the existence of them, and he moreover measures for the preservation of the pub said, that had he been a member of the lic tranquillity, were fair and legitimate cabinet, he should have felt it his duty to arguments against the suspension of the have recommended the measures which Habeas Corpus act, and against the mea- the government had adopted in laying the sures which followed it, but do not apply papers before the House, and making the to the question now before us of the In- communications under which the commitdemnity bill. I think, Sir, I might admittee had been formed. Thus then, Sir, I the whole of the argument founded on say, if I erred in my opinion with regard the disbelief of all danger ;---I might admit to the danger which existed previous to that parliament was deceived ; that the the measures which were adopted by parlegislature acted under false information, liament, I erred in common with Mr. that the whole of our proceedings were Ponsonby, whose honourable and manly founded in error, and yet it would not conduct on all occasions will not be quesdisparage the question now before us; tioned by the hon. gentlemen who still for, if the government has acted upon continue to disbelieve and deny the our authority, and has not abused the danger. power entrusted to it, if we are satisfied But, Sir, let us also look to what has the measures pursued have not been de- subsequently passed, to the events which trimental to the state, but have been car. have arisen since the suspension of the ried on with moderation, with temper, Habeas Corpus act. Can any man look and with firmness, we are called upon, in to the trials at Derby, and not feel that justice to ourselves and to those who have the proceedings in that part of the kingacted in the government, to pass this bill, dom were of the most treasonable and and it is on the ground of consistency, dangerous description? Is there a magisand of maintaining my opinions on these trate, or a respectable inhabitant of that great and momentous proceedings, that I neighbourhood, who does not believe it to shall give it my support; but, Sir, though have been a deep laid conspiracy for subI have said that I might admit the fact of verting the constitution of these realms? these dangers having been unfounded, I would ask the noble lord, the member without prejudice to this bill, yet in con- for the county of Derby, who, I am told, sistency with my former opinion, I still was foreman of the grand jury who found maintain the full extent of them, and the bills against these wretched men, wheevery circumstance which has occurred ther there was a doubt in the breast of since the suspension bill was passed. any one man composing the grand jury, Every event that has taken place subse- or in his own, of the treasonable intent? quent to the report of the first secret The object of these insurrections was, not committee of this House, has justified to procure employment, nor to find relief and confirmed the opinions that were from the pressure then existing from the then entertained of the danger of the low state of trade in the manufacturing country.

districts, but distinctly and exclusively I hardly think it necessary now to refer for the purpose of overthrowing all the to what passed previous to the measures great establishments of the country. The adopted by this House in the last session convictions which took place have unof parliament, but I must advert to the questionably proved this fact, and it is opinion which was then given by a gen- | therefore absurd to talk of a conspiracy tleman of whose character and abilities not having existed. The conspiracy not no man can speak too highly, I mean only existed in these counties, but was the late Mr. Ponsonby, whose memory I carried on, by communication and correshold in the highest veneration. It must pondence with the disaffected in the mebe remembered, that he professed his dis tropolis. belief in the extent of that danger with With regard to what fell from the hon. which the country was menaced; but gentleman who opened this debate, I think when he came out of the committee of he has dealt much in general declamation which he was a member, he was perfectly not new on this occasion.--He has told us convinced that the danger had not been that the people have been swindled out exaggerated. Mr. Ponsonby undoubtedly of their liberties by the government. Sir, differed with the majority of the House, if the people have been so swindled, it is as to the measures proposed to be adopted not the government but the legislature to meet those dangers; but he admitted who have been guilty of so foul a transac(VOL. XXXVII.)

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tion. But to those who contemplate this and respectable inhabitants of that place subject with less prejudice, and to the and its vicinity. Sir, we have the strongest people of England, I think it will appear, evidence to disprove this fact in the prothat the legislature acted upon the coolest ceedings which occurred at Derby. Is it and most deliberate judgment; that its possible to conceive, that the counsel who so proceedings were marked by the soundest ably defended the prisoners on their trials, wisdom ; and that the people owe to those would not have brought forward evidence proceedings, not the loss of their liberties, to substantiate this fact, had it been pos. but the retention of that peace and tran- sible? Would any jury have convicted, if quillity, and the enjoyment of those bless- the fact had appeared? Would the grand ings under which they live. Another hon. jury have found the bills ? But, Sir, it is gentleman has stated, among other argu- impossible to believe that persons in the ments against this bill, that the persons situation of ministers of this country, who have been apprehended, are of such could have been so wanting to all characnotorious bad character, that no indem ter, so lost to all principles of morality, nity is necessary against charges preferred | as to have committed themselves in such by such men. This argument proves, un a manner. They would be considered doubtedly, that government did not abuse worse than those desperate and horrible its power by apprehending those indivi- monsters, who, for the sake of bloodduals; but it is no argument against money, encourage to the commission of awarding that justice which is due from crime. Here it must have been an enthis House for the moderation of its pro- couragement to crime of the most extenceedings. It has also been urged by ano. sive and bloody nature, merely to establish ther hon. gentleman, but I can hardly be the truth of their opinions, that their de lieve he was serious in the proposition, or claration of treason and danger to the that I distinctly heard him, that he disap- state was well-founded and borne out by proved of this bill because it shut the door the result. against all future inquiry into the truth of With regard to the conduct of the gothose charges which had been prepared vernment in the execution of that sacred against the government for the abuse of and serious trust reposed in them by the its power, that "it might be wise and suspension of the Habeas Corpus act, let proper not to give up the authorities us 'review the transactions. It appears under which the information had been that 46 persons have been apprehended, procured, but he thought that object might of which only 23 have been brought to be attained by the ministers so charged trial, and pleaded guilty. Considering suffering judgment to go by default, and the state of the metropolis, which we if damages were awarded, to pay those had witnessed by the attempt made at damages from the revenues of the Crown." the Spa-field's meeting, and the disposi. I must repeat, that I cannot believe this tion manifested afterwards, looking to proposition to have been serious; it ap- the proofs we had of conspiracy at Mane pears to be so preposterous, and so con- chester, Nottingham, Derby, and spreadtrary to wisdom, economy, and justice. ing into Yorkshire, I, for one; cannot but

In adverting, Sir, to the other argu- be astonished at the few in numbers who ments which have been advanced against were apprehended under the warrants of this bill, there is one charge which, if the secretary of state. If we are to give made out, would undoubtedly place the credit to the report of your committee, government in the most degraded state, the proceedings on this subject seems to namely, the having employed spies, not have been marked by every disposition to alone to gain information, but for the moderation and forbearance, and every purpose of instigating to the crime of principle of humanity and kindness. With treason. If this were true, there is no regard to the other persons who have punishment too severe, there can be no been detained on suspicion of treason, condemnation too heavy for such an many of whom have petitioned this House, atrocious proceeding. What does the in no instance has it appeared that they charge rest upon? The worst description were not fully connected, and participators of evidence, namely, the petitioners im- in these dangerous conspiracies. They plicated in the crime, and a general state. have been proved to be men of most abanment by 26 persons calling themselves the doned characters, instigating and promotrespectable inhabitants of Manchester, ing sedition and seditious meetings. denied by all the principal and opulent These men, in their petitions, have com

it in a manner to restore the country to a state of tranquillity. When parliament again assembles, it is instantly recommended by the executive power to restore the suspended liberties of the country by a restriction of the Habeas Corpus act, and papers are again brought down to the Houses of parliament, communicating the grounds of all proceedings which have taken place since the former session closed; a second committee reports on these proceedings, with which the House and the country is satisfied; and now it is proposed to indemnify government against all prosecutions, or penalties arising from these proceedings. Is this unreasonable to demand? Should we not deny the justice and consistency of our whole conduct by refusing it? It is no boon we grant; it is justice; it is a duty we owe to ourselves; it is to maintain my own consistency, and that of parliament, that compels me to vote for it. We either were or were not in earnest; we either did or did not believe the danger; and we are either satisfied or dissatisfied with the conduct of government in the exercise of those powers with which they were entrusted. Continuing to hold the same sentiments I have ever done in these measures, and convinced that the majority of this House and of the country maintain the same sentiments, I think we cannot hesitate one moment in agreeing to this bill, in favour of which I shall give my vote with more satisfaction than I ever voted in my life.

plained of injustice and severity of treatment: they have asserted their innocence; but their complaints and assertions have never been borne out. Whenever the petitions have been discussed, the misstatements and falsehoods have been invariably proved; and I cannot but think that the executive power have the strongest evidence in support of these apprehensions, when it is expressly stated by your committee, that no individual whatever has been apprehended and imprisoned, but upon information given on oath, and in no instance on the oath of Mr. Oliver, or the persons employed as spies and informers. This fact alone, I must think, in the opinion of all those who are not greatly prejudiced on this subject, falsifies those statements and aggravated and inflamed charges which have been made against the government. No one can detest the character of an informer more than I do; but, Sir, must we shut our eyes and ears against all information derived in this way? I challenge any gentleman in this House, be his politics what they may; be his principles monarchical or republican, to deny the necessity under circumstances of resorting to such evidence. It is the bounden duty of a minister to profit by such information, to destroy the combinations of treason to the state. You cannot look back to your State Trials without seeing innumerable instances of the disclosure and destruction of treasonable conspiracies by the means of informers and spies. In this country, thank God, these means Lord Nugent said, he did not think are less resorted to than in other coun- that this question had any thing to do with tries; but I defy a government to be car- the suspension of the Habeas Corpus act. ried on in the execution to discharge its He should not now enter into the reasons duty without recourse to such evidence. which induced him to give his vote on Why, then, I put it Sir, to the fair, un- that measure last year; but he thought prejudiced, honourable feelings of the that those who voted against the suspenHouse to say, whether the government, sion owed it to themselves, to the House, and those whom they have employed for to the country, and even to ministers the suppression of the dangers which ex-themselves, to institute a fuller investigaisted, merit that security which this bill provides. Let us review the progress of these proceedings which appear to me to have been fair, open, and manly on the part of the government. First, information is laid before the House of dangerous and treasonable conspiracies existing; papers are brought down; a committee is formed, which in its report, confirms the danger; and the legislature thereon suspends the Habeas Corpus act; parliament is prorogued, and the government, during the recess, exercise the powers vested in

tion than was embodied in the report then upon the table. His hon. friend who spoke last, had quoted the opinion of a right hon. gentleman whose loss, he believed, they both sincerely regretted-he meant the late Mr. Ponsonby. It was true that that right hon. gentleman went into the committee impressed with the opinion that great danger existed; but he came out of it, believing that there were greater grounds of complaint. And what was the vote which he gave on that measure? He voted against the suspen