The question being put, that "113,640
men" stand part of the question, the
House divided: Ayes, 51; Noes, 21.
List of the Minority.

Althorp, visc.
Brougham, Henry
Bankes, Henry

Babington, Thomas

Curwen, J. C.
Duncannon, visc.
Douglas, hon. F. S.

Lyttelton, hon. W.
Monck, sir C.
Newport, sir John
Ord, Wm.

Sharp, Richard
Smyth, J H.

Smith, W.

Mr. Bankes thought that the present send them into the world in a more comvote was larger than the necessity of the fortable condition than they were in becase required. Last year, from the agi- fore. The world, however, could dispense tated state of the country, he had not with them; for he believed the chasm in thought any reduction could safely be society, occasioned by the removal of made in the force proposed for England; culprits, could always be soon filled up. but now that order and tranquillity once Notwithstanding the sums expended by more prevailed, he was of a different opi- the country in prisons and establishments nion. As to the army in Ireland, he wish- of various descriptions, they found that ed it to be reduced gradually. crimes were perpetually increasing. There were other means to which they ought to turn their attention. A vigilant police ought to be established. The metropolis ought to be divided into districts, and a stricter watch set over those individuals who were habituated to crimes, and who were known not to obtain their living by honest means. If one quarter of the sum which they were devoting to this useless expense were expended on a watchful police, the commission of crime would soon receive an effective check, and they would not witness those disgraceful crimes which the metropolis had of late exhibited. He hoped the House would soon turn their attention to this subject. He did not think that a diminution of punishment could have the effect of preventing crime. A permanent and extensive effect could only be produced by a vigorous police. It was said that our prisons were nurseries of crime; that the comparatively innocent, from associating with hardened criminals, returned to society much worse members than when they entered the prisons. Why, he would ask, in the prisons of this metropolis, should persons, whose guilt was not established, be kept five or six weeks in the company of hardened criminals? At present, instead of the criminals being punished, society was punished; and society was punished because it was so negligent.

Fazakerley, Nic.
Gordon, Robert

Grenfell, Pascoe

Hurst, Robert

·Lemon, sir W.

Symonds, T. P.
Warre, J. A.
TELLERS.
Burroughs, sir W.
Calcraft, J.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, March 4.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES.] The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to which the Miscellaneous Estimates were referred. On the resolution, "That 60,000. be granted towards defraying the expense of the building of a Penitentiary House at Millbank, for the year 1818,"

Mr. Gordon said, that the House ought to be made acquainted with the way in which the sums before granted for the building of this establishment had been spent. It had been found necessary to take down some of the towers, they had been so badly constructed. The sum now required was for rebuilding.

Mr. Lockhart said, no less than 71,000l. above the sum at which the expense of this prison was originally estimated, had already been voted; and as a prison it had totally failed to produce the effect which the House had in view, namely, to deter from the commission of crime. It might indeed have produced, what, compared with the other, was a secondary object, the amendment of the criminal. But that was of small importance, compared with the deterring from the commission of crime. It might be Christian-like to endeavour to better these people, and to (VOL. XXXVII.)

Mr. C. Long said, the objections to the Penitentiary at Millbank ought to have been stated at an earlier period. It ought to be recollected that the Penitentiary was adopted by parliament after a great deal of discussion. He was astonished that the hon. gentleman should consider the amendment of the persons in that prison a secondary object. The hon. gentleman had said what was perfectly true, that innocent persons, from mixing with hardened criminals in prisons, came out depraved. Did he mean to say, then, that a system by which the amendment of prisoners was promoted, was not worth the attention of the House? It was true that a tower had been pulled down and rebuilt. (3 D)

Those who planned and superintended 7 made no delay whatever in the payment the building bad not the choice of the of the charges which they had to bear. situation, which was pointed out by act Mr. Warre observed, that by the treaty of parliament. A small part of the build- of 1815 there was to be set apart 60 miling had given way, but the cause was known, lions of livres out of the 125 millions of and from the means which had been adopt- livres which was to be paid by France to ed, no further apprehension was enter the Netherlands, for the reparation of the tained. All who had visited the building fortresses on the Flemish frontier. The agreed, that it could not possibly be whole expense of the reparation of these constructed on a plan better calculated to fortresses was estimated at 137 millions of answer the object in view. The system livres. He did not know whether these appeared, as far as they had yet had any | 60 millions had already been expended by experience of it, to answer the purpose of the king of the Netherlands in contributthose who projected it. This was very ing to the repair of the fortresses; and much owing to an hon. friend of his (Mr. he could wish to receive some informaHolford) who had devoted all his time to tion from the noble lord on this subject. this object. Without a constant vigilance Lord Castlereagh said, that as a consiand superintendence, the hopes of the deration for the colonies ceded by HolHouse from this prison would be frus- land to this country, it was understood trated.

that Great Britain was to contribute Mr. Lockhart explained. The right hon. equally with Holland towards the reparagentleman had very much misunderstood tion of the fortresses on the French fronhim, if he supposed that he considered the tier. Sixty million livres to be received amendment of prisoners a secondary con- from France were to be appropriated to sideration. He had merely said that the same purpose.

The contributions this was secondary with reference to from France were to be applied in the the greater consideration of preventing first place towards that expense. He crime.

could assure the hon. member that in all Mr. Arbuthnot appealed to the hon. cases the sums received from France were member for Shrewsbury as to the amelio- appropriated to this object as soon as they ration in the conduct of the prisoners in came in; but the whole of the 60 millions the Penitentiary.

of livres, had not been so employed, beMr. Bennet said, he approved, in great cause this sum had not yet all come in. part, of the system pursued at Millbank, Mr. Warre observed, that by an addithough he thought it admitted of improve- tional article of the treaty we were bound ment

to bear equally with the king of the NeMr. Wynn said, that when they consi- therlands such farther charges incurred in dered the great expense which the trans- the reparation of the Belgic fortresses as portation of offenders occasioned to the should not make the sum to be paid by country, and liow little satisfactory the Great Britain to exceed in the whole result had been, particularly in the case of three millions. He should like to know females, they could not fail to view the from the noble lord how far we were liaPenitentiary plan as most beneficial to ble to pay more than two millions towards the country,

the repair of the fortresses ? The Resolution was then agreed to. Lord Castlereagh said, the whole sum

The Chancellor of the Exchequer then which Great Britain was bound to pay moved, “ That 725,6811. 12s. Sd. be by the treaty, could not exceed two milgranted on account of the sum of two mil. lions. lions to be applied by his majesty, in con- Mr. Warre asked, if by the treaty we cert with his majesty the king of the Ne- could not be called on to pay three miltherlands, towards improving the defences lions in all towards the Belgic fortresses? of the Low Countries, by virtue of the The Chancellor of the Exchequer allowConvention concluded on the 13th ofed that the treaty was not very clearly August 1814." In proposing this vote, he worded with respect to this matter ; but had the satisfaction of informing the there was a distinct understanding, that House, that the subject of the vote was the whole sum which Great Britain

should not likely to occasion the charges upon contribute towards the repair of the Belgic the public that had at first been imagined; fortresses should not exceed two millions ; for the French government, it was a sub- and that the whole charge which could by ject of considerable congratulation, had any possibility be brought against Great Britain by the king of the Netherlands would be sufficient. If it was desirable should not exceed three millions.

then, that the returns should be destroyMr. Tierney was willing to believe that ed, it would be desirable that the means this was the understanding at signing the should be taken to produce a compliance treaty, still, however, the treaty itself with those orders which had been hitherto might be thought to bear a different con- ineffectually given. The Treasury, and the struction.

Tax-office had at present no means to en. The Resolution was then agreed to. force compliance, if their directions were

disobeyed. He should therefore move for a MR. BROUGHAM's Motion RESPECT- committee to inquire what steps had been ING THE Income Tax RetuRNS AND taken. To this motion, he believed, no Papers.] Mr. Brougham said, he rose objection would be made. He was more disto make a proposition to carry into effect posed to do this, because he thought he a measure, the propriety of which was ad- had observed on former occasions a slowmitted, he believed, on all sides of the ness in the Tax-office in attending to the House; he meant the destruction of all orders of the House. It was a refractory remains of that tax on which they had department, though he attached no blame long ago passed a sentence of condemna- to his hon. and learned friend at the head tion. The principle on which the motion of it; but there was something in the naproceeded was so obvious, that he should ture of the department which made them not offer a word in support of it, but he slow. If they might trust the index of should shortly state the circumstances the votes on the 3d of February a return which now rendered it necessary. About had been moved for of the pensions of the two years ago the chancellor of the exche late property tax inspectors, which return quer had stated, that he had given direc- had not yet been made, though it might tions for the destruction of the returns have been made in half the time. But ever under the income tax. Subsequently to since the slip the House had made two that, it was found that these directions had vears ago, by the repeal of the Income tax, been very imperfectly complied with; ihe House had been looked upon, by all that the originals or copies of these re- concerned in the extracting money by turns were bandied about, and sold every taxation, with a jealous eye. He believed where as waste paper, and that in some in many instances it would be found, that places a person could hardly go into a the names at the heads of the returns had shop without seeing the returns of some only been altered by a stroke or two of of his neighbours, or perhaps his own. the pen, or an attempt at erasure, which When this was mentioned, it was said, left them quite legible to eyes but half as that steps would be taken to destroy the sharp as those employed in the collection returns; and about the same time a circu- of taxes. In some of the instances he had lar was issued, requiring the officers to been made acquainted with, a person had destroy the original returns, preserving sent for goods from a chandler's shop, and copies, which were to be transmitted to with the goods were sent him a return of the tax-office in London, and there to be one of his neighbours income; and, on preserved. No farther notice had been making inquiry, he was directed to a place taken of the subject till within a few days, where he might find the returns of any when he had received information from person in the neighbourhood. The col. persons who had seen these returns scat- lector or assessor having failed, his waste tered about, as they had formerly been, paper had been sold, which consisted of in one part of the country. It was evi- such documents. It was a maxim of law dent there was no use in destroying the to trust every man in his own art. If the originals, if copies were left. For though object was to ascertain the utmost sum the names were left out, it was manifest which could be extracted from the people, that if all the details were preserved, any or to whip up arrears, he should be wil. person in the neighbourhood, not to speak ling to trust the tax-gatherers; but when of the assessor, would be able to supply the question was to destroy the relics of a the names. On what ground could it be tax which was so dear to them, he dis. necessary to preserve these returns at all trusted their diligence. This tax had on It was said, that they were necessary to all occasions received the praises of the check the returns of the county rate; 'but chancellor of the exchequer, and he was for this purpose the sums total, properly at liberty now to repeat them; but the authenticated, of parishes or districts, opinion of the House and of the country

a

was unchanged, or rather, if, out of the settling county-rates and assessments. He people, nine out of ten disapproved it at hoped, therefore, that the House, upon present, it was condemned by nioety-nine taking these circumstances into their conout of every hundred. The hon. and sideration, would see no necessity for the learned genileman then moved, “ That a appointment of a committee. committee be appointed to inquire into the Mr. Grenfell said, he completely consteps which have been taken to destroy curred in opinion with his hon. and learned the Returns of Bodies Corporate and Indi- friend, as to the refractoriness evinced by viduals under the Income Tax acts.” the different offices connected with the

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was department of taxes in complying with doubtful whether any benefit could pos- the orders of the House, but he could not sibly arise from the appointment of such agree with him in excepting the gentleman a committee as that now proposed by the at the head of that department. He knew, hon. and learned gentleman. With re- however, that no blame could attach to spect to the charge made against the the secretary of that department, whose department of the income tax, of re- conduct was in every respect highly crepugnance to comply with the orders of the ditable. He felt the greatest satisfaction House in the production of such docu- in having to congratulate that House and ments as the House found necessary to the country on the admission then made call for, he believed that that department for the first time, that the country was not was not more averse than any other de- again to be inflicted with the property partment in showing due compliance to tax. It was certainly a fair subject of their orders. The papers which the hon. congratulation to hear, that, though the and learned gentleman had alluded to, right hon. gentleman considered the tax as an instance to prove the charge of re- as right and proper in time of war, yet he luctance, were long ago in possession of the would never recommend it in time of House, and this the hon. and learned gen- peace. This declaration was the more tleman might have easily ascertained by cheering, as a fear had been prevalent inquiring at the vote office. The accounts that a recurrence to this oppressive tax called for respecting the inspectors of the was still contemplated. income tax had been ordered on the 3rd Mr. C. Calvert took occasion to express of February, and it appeared they were a hope, that some measures would be taken returned on the 10th of February. With to guard against the vexation to which respect to the property tax, it was not his several persons had been recently subintention then to enter into its general |jected under the system for collecting the merits. He knew it was burthensome to assessed taxes. This vexation was, he the country, though highly necessary to knew, peculiarly felt in his own neighbourcarry us through the arduous struggle in hood. For after the people had had their which we had then been engaged. In time proportion of the tax fixed upon

the rack of peace it was objectionable, and he reni, by a regular and respectable surtrusted unnecessary. The object of the veyor, an assessor appeared, who, without hon. and learned gentleman's motion was, any previous survey, ordered an advance that all papers of the description alluded of the tax equal to 50, and even 100 per to should be destroyed indiscriminately; cent upon some premises. Such, indeed, but this could not be done, as some of was the grievous exaction demanded from them were absolutely necessary for the the inhabitants of Isleworth, Twickenham, recovery of certain arrears of the property and Hampton, tax. Orders had been already given for Mr. Brougham expressed his surprise the destruction of all such as were not ne- at the language and conduct of the chaạ. cessary for the recovery of arrears, and cellor of the exchequer, who, after some the detection of fraud. All return3 of little explanation not at all material to the commercial property, included in schedule question, declared his intention to vote B, were such as, from the circumstances against the motion. But what was this of such property, ought certainly to be motion to which the right hon. gentleman destroyed, excepting such as were neces- professed so much objection? Why, sary for the recovery of arrears. It was simply for the appointment of a comjudged necessary to preserve copies of mittee to inquire what returns or papers some of these returns, because two dif- connected with the property tax had been ferent acts, passed in the year 1815, re- destroyed, or could be destroyed without ferred to these papers for the purpose of any injury to the public service. The