Mr. H. Sumner in reply, said, that this | enormous evil. The House had, no tax was limited to 1837, but was to expire doubt, done much towards the prevention so much sooner, as the suns charged on it of crime, the promotion of morality, and should be discharged. The grant now the encouragement of benevolence; but demanded would, therefore, prolong the while lotteries were tolerated, and the duration of the tax. He allowed that a system to which he alluded was allowed rate on Middlesex, for the maintenance of to go on in tempting men to the comthe city prisons, might be justifiable; but mission of crime, no exertions of benevohe saw no reason for charging the other lence could balance the account in their neighbouring counties who supported gaols favour. The hon. and learned gentleman of their own. The manner in which the here read the terms of his first motion, city had first acquired the control of the adding, that in order to put the House in Orphans' fund was very suspicious, as possession of all the materials necessary they gave a bribe of 1,0001. to Mr. to the formation of a correct judgment Speaker Trevor, who had, in consequence, upon the whole of the case, he should also been obliged to put the question on his move for an account of the number of own expulsion.

persons prosecuted and convicted for The question being put, That the words coining gold and silver for fourteen years proposed to be left out stand part of the previous to the enactment of the restricquestion, the House divided : Ayes, 24; tion upon the issue of cash payments by Noes, 11. The main question was then the Bank. This he thought a proper moput, and agreed to.

tion, with a view to a fair comparison

between the advantages or disadvantages PROSECUTIONS FOR Forgery.] Sir of the metallic currency, and those beJames Mackintosh rose to make a motion longing to the present system of paper of which he had given notice, which was currency. framed with a view to show the effect Mr. Bennet suggested the propriety of which the bank restriction had upon the inserting the number committed, as well increase of crimes connected with forgery. as prosecuted, for the forgery of passing The accounts he should move for were, of bank notes. Sir J. Mackintosh acfor the prosecutions for forgery for 14 ceded to the suggestion, and moved, years before, and 14 years after the re- “ That there be laid before the House, an striction of cash payments at the Bank in account of the number of persons com1797; and the number of convictions and mitted or prosecuted for forging notes of executions at each period. Of the pro- the Bank of England, and for uttering or secutions, they had returns which had possessing such notes knowing them to be been formerly moved for, and of the con- forged, from the 1st January 1816 to the victions in the late years, they had ac 25th of February 1818; distinguishing counts in the general returns of criminal the years, the number of such offences judicature since 1812. That the Restric- respectively, and the number who have tion bill should have tended to increase suffered death or other punishment.” the prosecutions for forgery, was not to be Mr. Grenfell did not intend to enter wondered at; but if any one had stated, into the merits of the motion, but should that they had since that event been multi-content himself with expressing his thanks plied a hundred fold, he would not have to his hon. and learned friend for his very been believed; and yet such was the fact. humane and well-timed exertions. He By the accounts which had been produced, would only suggest to his hon. and learned it was proved, that the prosecutions at friend the propriety of combining with the instance of the Bank for forgery, pre- the motion of which he had given notice viously to 1797, were four. The prose- for Tuesday next, a proposition for laying cutions for the fourteen years after were before the House a distinct account of 438-so that they were more then cen- the persons prosecuted for the forgery of tupled. It was necessary, he observed, notes of 1l. 21. and 51. For it was known to ascertain the consequences of this sys that those were the notes usually circutem, the diffusion of depravity, the mul- culated by the low people who were protiplication of crimes, and the effusion of secuted, while very few were prosecuted human blood which had resulted from its for notes of a higher amount; and upon existence. When these facts were before this fact being established to the satisfacthe House, it would be felt that something tion of the House, it must be evident that should be done to put an end to such an the number of prosecutions, convictions,

ed

and executions for forgery, was owing to count from February 1797 to 25th Febru. the restriction upon cash payments by the ary 1818." Bank, and the consequent issue of a vast number of small notes.

HOUSE OF LORDS. Mr Lockhart deprecated any attempt to excite an improper commiseration for Wednesday, February 25. crime, observing, that it was the duty of INDEMNITY BILL.] The Duke of the Bank to hold out encouragement to Montrose said, it was his duty to present artists and chemists with a view to the to their lordships a bill, commonly called invention of some paper and colour which a Bill of Indemnity. It was founded upon could not possibly be imitated, and thus the Report of the Secret Committee, and the forgery of bank notes might be guard- was intituled a Bill " for indemnifying ed against.

persons who, since the 26th of January Sir J. Mackintosh declared that he had 1817, have acted in apprehending imprino wish to excite improper commiseration soning, or detaining in custody, persons for crime, or to take any proceeding suspected of high treason, or treasonable likely to weaken the authority of the laws. practices, and in the suppression of tuBut while he admitted the hon.gentleman's multuous and unlawful assemblies.” It position, which, however, conveyed no in- was not necessary for him to say any formation, namely, that no temptation was thing in its support in this stage. He an adequate excuse for crime, he would should merely propose, that the bill be maintain, that any legislature which held now read a first time. On Friday, when out a temptation to crime was a participa- he intended to move the second reading, tor in the guilt of its commission. This, he should submit to their lordships conindeed, was a proposition which he would sideration some observations on the nature never abandon; and it was by the force and object of the measure. of this proposition that he was impelled to take measures, with a view to rescue not have troubled their lordships with any the British legislature from the disgrace observations on the noble duke's proposiof tolerating a system which was peculiarly tion at the present moment, if he did not calculated to tempt men to the commission conceive that it involved a question of of crimes.

considerable constitutional difficulty and General Thornton rejoiced that a sub- importance. This consideration induced ject which he had brought forward unsuc- him to oppose the measure even on the cessfully, was now likely to be attended first reading. From the title of the bill, as with success.

He had understood that he had heard it stated by the noble duke, not less than 30,000 forged bank notes it appeared to be a bill for indemnifying were annually returned. This was a very his majesty's ministers for every act they serious evil.

had done under the suspension of the The motion was agreed to; as were Habeas Corpus. The bill, however, for also motions for, 1. “An Account of the aught their lordships knew, might extend number of persons convicted of forging still farther. Now, what was the situation Notes of the Bank of England, and for in which their lordships were placed ? knowingly uttering or possessing such They knew by the Journals of the other forged notes, who suffered death, for the House of parliament, that papers had 14 years which preceded the suspension been also sent to that House, and referred of cash payments by the Bank in February to a committee. That committee had 1797, distinguishing the years; together not yet reported, and their report might with the like Account, from the said sus. be such as to render any proceeding of pension to the 25th day of February the kind now proposed very improper to 1818;" 2. An Account of the number of be adopted by their lordships. It surely persons prosecuted by the officers of his was not known to their lordships, that the majesty's Mint for counterfeiting the cur- report of the Commons would acquit mirent Gold or Silver Coin of the realm, or nisters. It might prove of a very different for uttering the same, for 14 years pre- nature. Suppose it afforded matter on ceding the suspension of cash payments which that House shouid think fit to imby the Bank of England, distinguishing peach ministers, their lordships would the years, the numbers convicted, and then have to sit as judges on a question those who have suffered death or other which they had previously determined. punishment; together with the like ac- He reminded the House, that on a former

9

occasion they had decided, in accordance Indemnity bill when it came before them. with the opinion of a noble and learned Besides, the case was by no means a new lord, that they would not entertain a cer- one. There was, in particular, on the tain measure, because it might come be- Journals of that parliament, a recent prefore them in their judicial capacity. On cedent of Ireland for the course now the same ground this bill was not fit to taken. The bill of indemnity for the probe entertained; for if any regulating prin- ceedings of his majesty's servants during ciple of their proceedings were more to the disturbances in Ireland originated in be regarded than another, it was this—the House of Lords, and it never was that the House ought never to give an ex. suggested, that it ought to be delayed trajudicial opinion. This, then, was a until it should be seen what decision the question of great importance to the con- | House of Commons came to. It was stitution, and on that ground he trusted most unreasonable to argue that their their lordships would be induced to delay lordships ought to delay a measure which all farther proceedings until they learned appeared to be the necessary result of the what measures might be adopted by the report of their committee, until the other House of Commons. If they approved House of parliament came to a decision. the principle of the bill proposed by the Their lordships were not bound to regu. noble duke, and read it a second time on late their proceedings by that decision; Friday next, they might be placed in the of which, indeed, they could regularly situation of assembling as judges after they know nothing, except through the me had prejudged the question on which they dium of the votes of the House of Com would be called to decide.

mons. Upon the whole, then, the noble The Earl of Liverpool saw no possible earl had stated nothing which was suffiground for delay in the objection stated cient to induce the House to, stay the by the noble lord. If it were good for legislative measure now proposed to them. any thing, it would be equally good Whatever objections that measure might against a measure which their lordships be liable to, would come regularly under had already sanctioned, namely, the ap- discussion on the second reading of the pointment of a committee to inquire into bill on Friday. the conduct of ministers on the papers Lord Holland expected that the noble which had been submitted to their consi- duke would have stated more at length deration. This, it was true, was done what was the nature of the bill he had without any knowledge on the part of their presented. He, however, did not mean lordships as to what that committee would to occupy their lordships time with any decide; but the objection that the House observations on that point, but rose merely ought not to proceed to a legislative mea- to notice the answer which had been given sure on the opinion of the committee, to the objection of his noble friend who was equally strong against referring the had been, it appeared, in some measure papers to that committee in order that misunderstood. His noble friend had not they might give an opinion to the House. I argued that the House could not entertain The committee had, by the order of the this bill. His objection merely amounted House, examined these papers inquisito {to this; that, in a constitutional point of rially, and had come to an opinion, which view, it was not proper nor prudent to was now on their lordships table. In proceed with such a measure when the pursuance of that opinion, his noble Other House of parliament had still to friend considered himself bound to intro- decide on the question of the conduct of duce the bill he had presented. Whether ministers, and when there was before that that bill was warranted by the report was

House a considerable number of petitions, the question to be argued on the second complaining of highly improper and uncon. reading. The noble lord had made the stitutional acts. To the argument of the supposition of the committee of the impropriety of proceeding with the meaHouse of Commons coming to a different sure under such circumstances, the noble conclusion from their lordships commit- secretary of state had given no satisfactory tee; that was doubtless possible, but the answer.

He had referred to one precesupposition afforded no reason for delay. dent which appeared to be that which ing the progress of the present measure; occurred in 1798, in the House of since, if what the noble earl supposed did Lords of Ireland; but that was the pretake place, the consequence would be, cedent of a measure which ha that the Commons would throw out the condemned by the first lawyers in Ire

it.

IN

It

land and this country, and which was the Lord Holland moved, that instead of disgrace of the parliament that passed the word “now," for the first reading,

The reference to such a precedent as the words, “ this day se'nnight” be in. that, afforded farther reason for a vigilant serted. observance of this bill, lest some of the The question, that the word "now" enormous provisions of the Irish act should stand part of the question was put, and be included in it. Without even waiting carried in the affirmative. The bill was for the report of the Commons committee, then read a first time, and ordered to be it was possible that a member of that printed. House might become possessed of facts, which would enable him to lay on the table articles of impeachment against some

HOUSE OF COMMONS. of his majesty's ministers. If such a pro.

Wednesday, February 25. ceeding were to take place, their lordships Privately STEALING SHOPS would be reading a second time a bill for Bill.] Sir Samuel Romilly having moved, indemnifying those who were about to be that the act of the 10th and 11th of Wil. accused at their bar. The noble secretary liam 3rd should be entered as read, stated, of state had reminded their lordships, that that he rose for the purpose of moving the Commons might reject the bill of in. for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so demnity. Certainly they might; but then much of the said act as took away the it was to be recollected that, besides that benefit of clergy from persons convicted rejection, they might also come to the of privately stealing goods, wares, or mer. bar with a solemn accusation against chandize, to the value of 5s. in any coachthose whom their lordships had just de- house, shop, warehouse, or stable. clared innocent. If their lordships wished would not be necessary for him to trouble that their acquittal should be honourable the House at any great length on the to those in whose favour it might be pro- subject, because their opinion, both in nounced, they would adopt the course this and in the preceding parliament, had recommended by his noble friend. Could already been strongly expressed. The the people of England think an acquittal identical bill for which he was about to honourable and impartial, when it would move, had passed the House of Commons appear to them that the question had been four times; twice in that parliament, and already prejudged ? To delay the pro- twice in its predecessor ; and, on the last gress of this bill was no denial of their occasion, he might say unanimously; not lordships power to originate and pass it. a single word having been uttered in opAll that was proposed by his noble friend position to it. It had always, however, was, that they should suspend farther been stopped in the other House. Als proceedings on it until after the report of though it was not his intention to detain the committee of the House of Commons the House with many observations, he should be made, and there should be no must be permitted to call their attention reason to suppose, that any articles of to the returns which for some days had impeachment would be brought up from been on the table, in order to show what that House.

the state of the law was on the subject. The Duke of Montrose said, that the These returns proved, that the state of bill was of the same nature as the bills of the law was such, that it was never carindemnity propñsed in similar cases, and ried into effect. From 1805 to 1817, he saw no reason for delaying its progress a period of 12 years, 655 persons had on the possibility of some other proceed- been indicted for the offence under coning being instituited in the Commons. It sideration. Of these, only 113 had been was impossible to tell how long they might capitally convicted, and of those 113, not have to wait for the decision of the one had been executed; 365 of the 655 other House; and upon the same princi- had been found guilty by the juries beple, the whole session might be allowed fore whom they were tried, of simple larto pass away before the bill was read. ceny, by which the capital part of the He could not on such grounds consent to charge was taken away. It was evident, their lordships depriving themselves of therefore, either that these 365 persons the opportunity of proceeding with a had been improperly charged with a cameasure which they had an unquestion- pital offence, or that the juries, influenced, able right to institute, and the propriety no doubt, by feelings of humanity, had, of which appeared undoubted.

in 365 cases, violated their oaths. (VOL. XXXVII.)

(2R)

was true; that there were high authorities, laws knew, that not a year passed without in justification of a jury thus acting. Mr. the occurrence of a great number of frauJustice Blackstone stated, that a jury dulent bankruptcies. Nevertheless, durwho brought in a verdict of guilty to an ing eighty-five years, there had been but amount less than the evidence established, four capital convictions for this offence ; with a view to avoid capitally convicting numerous frauds to a great amount having the accused person, might be justified, on been suffered to escape with complete imthe ground that they had a right to take punity, because the parties injured saw into their consideration the difference in no alternative between that course and the value of money between the present the shedding of blood [Hear, hear!]. period and that at which the statute was The same system was pursued with resenacted. This, however, he should al- pect to the crime of forgery. Formerly, ways contend, was a practice which had pardons for this offence were very rare. a most immoral tendency, and the temp- Lately, however, the offence had so multations to it, he should always maintain, / tiplied, in consequence of the great init was the duty of the legislature to re- crease of paper currency (both that of move. He would take the present oppor- the Bank of England and provincial), that tunity of mentioning the state of the law, it was impossible to adhere to the system as derived from the returns on the table, of never pardoning the crime. Still with respect to the act making it capital however, the principle existed, that, in to steal within a dwelling house to the post cases, the law should be enforced ; amount of 40s. Within eight years down and that in comparatively few (and those to 1816, no less than 1097 persons had under peculiar circumstances of extenuabeen tried for this offence. Of these, 293 tion), it should not be so. A consideronly had been capitally convicted, and not able discretion had been vested in the one had been executed. In 1816, 131 Bank of England on this subject, a dismore persons had been tried, of whom 49 cretion which, he believed, had been judi. had been capitally convicted, and one ciously and humanely executed, and the (whose case was accompanied by circum- consequence of which was, that prosecustances of great aggravation) executed. tions had only taken place in aggravated So that, of 1228 individuals' tried, 342

But the consequence was, that only had been capitally convicted (the the uncertainty of punishment which this juries either acquitting the 886, or finding occasioned, destroyed all the advantages them guilty of stealing to a less amount), that might be supposed to result from the and only one person executed! Was this severity with which the law was generally a state of the law which it was desirable to enforced. He was persuaded that the continue? [Hear, hear!] It was important, frequent punishment of forgery by death, also, that the House should direct their excited a strong feeling of compassion on attention to the state of the law as it re- the part of the public towards the sufferers. spected some other capital offences, be- Indeed, some examples of this punishsides those which he had already specified. ment were extremely shocking. That The principle on which the law was ad- day se’nnight two women had been exeministered, with respect to the offences cuted for forgery, and that very morning he had already specified, was, that the two boys, one sixteen and the other selaw should generally not be enforced, but venteen years of age, would have been be enforced only in particular cases. In executed for the same crime, had it not another part of the administration of the been for the exertions of a worthy magislaw this principle was reversed--the law trate (Mr. Alderman Wood), and an hon. was generally enforced, and was not en- friend of his (Mr. Bennet), who had deforced only in particular cases. He al- tected a conspiracy for the purpose of luded to the offences of fraudulent bank- their seduction, and who had successfully ruptcy and forgery. It had been thought pressed a recommendation for a suspenwise, by those who were entrusted with sion of their punishment. Was it possible the execution of the law, to extend mercy that such spectacles as these could have in cases of fraudulent bankruptcy in only any other effect than to produce-not obeone instance, and that was under circum- dience to the law-but compassion for the stances so peculiar, that to have withheld violators of it? The fact was, that for. pardon, would have been an act of the geries had greatly increased. Nothing gro: sest injustice. He was sure, that could be more certain than that if the every pian, conversant with the bankrupt sanction of the law was insufficient to pre