thing could induce him to form part of any I do not deny that I always felt strongly the government which sauctioned a measure attempts that were made to intimidate your of reform. 1 can now fancy such a noble Lordships; but for that Meeting which has Duke coming down to this House and been described in the paper produced in this saying: Things are now most materi-House, and for all such Meetings I feel the ally changed-there is a collision between greatest contempt; and I am perfectly satisthe House of Lords and the House of fied that the House is superior to any intimiCommons. I know what war is and dation fouuded on the proceedings of any you do not. I told you I had no inten- such assemblages. I feel no concern for all tion of bringing forward a measure of re-these threats, whether proceeding from Birform, but now the state of things is most mingham or elsewhere. I have always materially changed; but don't allow large thought, and I think still, that the law is too. Meetings such as Birmingham to intimidate strong to be overborne by such proceedings you-be bold, be stout, be determined. But I know further, that there does exist throughif the association be once formed, you must out this country a strong feeling of attachment give way, then there is danger of war, and to the Government of the country, as by law agitators are abroad; and I know what war established. I know that the people look up is, and I tell you you are in a different situa- to the law as their best means of protection, tion from that in which you before stood, and and those laws they will not violate in any I will drag you through the mire after having manner to endanger the Government of the before bespattered you." It is just possible country, or any of its established institutions. that a noble Duke might hold such lan-I am afraid of none of these, but I will tell guage. Is it not just possible that a right hon. Gentleman in another place might say something of the same sort? He might say "My opinions are not altered-I am really opposed to the bill, but there is danger, and it is only to danger that I would yield; and, therefore, I recommend you to make concessions to the dangerous spirit of the times." Surely, my Lords, you cannot fail to ask yourselves this-Is it not much more dignified to yield before there is danger than afterwards? As respects this House, the present is now a virgin question. If you agree to reform now, it becomes the spontaneous act of this House. I inquire of your Lordships, is not such a course more consistent with the dignity of this House, and likely to prove more advantageous to ourselves? There is no shrinking from this truth-either that you must take the bill now, or be forced by circumstances to adopt hereafter a measure full as efficient, and, perhaps, less acceptable to this House; whereas, if the proposed change be adopted before the danger arises, all idea of intimidation will be out of the question. (Cheers.) The Duke of WELLINGTON.-The noble Baron rose, and made a speech to order; and I never recollect a speech more inconsistent with order, or with the practice of this House. On the question, "That the petition do lie upon the Table," the noble Baron referred to a debate, going on, I may say, upon a subject now under the consideration of Parliament; and he also referred to a debate on a subject respecting which I rather thought that, for once in my life, I possessed the approbation of the noble Baron. This discussion has now lasted some time; but during the whole of it I remained silent. I did not wish to draw your attention to the bill now on your Lordships' table, upon an occasion merely of presenting a petition. I have not said one word, I have not uttered a cheer during the present debate, and I do not see how my sentiments can with propriety be brought into discussion, that your Lordships what I am afraid of. I am The Earl of CARLISLE said, that none of the revolutions which occurred in this country were brought about by Parliament. He wished to inquire from the noble Duke who had just sat down, if he meant to say that the reformation of the Church of this country was a parliamentary revolution, or if the revolution of 1688 was a parliamentary revolution, and were there any other revolutions besides those? The Earl of WINCHILSEA could not suffer the unwarrantable attach whick had been made upon a noble Duke near him to pass without notice. He could not allow without notice, that any noble Lord should say of that noble Duke that he would aim at obtaining office by a sacrifice of principle. (Cries of "No, no!" from the Treasury bench.) A more unjustifiable attack than that which had been made upon the noble Duke, he had never heard. Though he (Lord Winchilsea) differed from that noble Person upon a great and memorable occasion, yet he gave him the fullest credit for perfect sincerity, and for an earnest wish to maintain the peace of the country. It was with much regret that he had now to acknowledge that he assisted in removing that noble Duke from office, and noble Earl. So great was my respect for him, -putting in place of him and his colleagues a that I did feel the strongest inclination to Ministry deserving neither the confidence of support his Government, for I felt quite sure Parliament, nor the respect of the country- that he would be the last man in the country a Ministry ready to sacrifice the dearest rights who would retract a word he had uttered, or and interests of the country, and incur the swerve from any principle he professed, and hazard of overturning all the established insti- the noble Duke near me has correctly intertutious, from too great a facility in yielding preted my sentiments. I did meau to impute to clamour and popular excitement, rather to the noble Earl merely the intention to dethan listening to the dictates of good sense stroy what I conceive to be the dearest rights and sound policy. The noble and learned of the country. There was then a very general call for the Order of the Day; but Lord upon the Woolsack had laid down a Earl GREY expressed himself perfectly sadoctrine to which he (Lord W.) could not sub-tisfied. scribe, namely that to refuse those taxes which the necessities of the country and the honour of the Sovereign demanded, was no breach of the public peace-he would say it was treason; and if the Government did their duty, they would instantly prosecute the persons accused of such an offence. Lord HOLLAND rose to explain: he did not cast any imputation upon the sincerity of the noble Duke-neither did he raise any question as to his motives for accepting or rejecting office. The noble Lord then recapitulated the speech given above. Earl GREY. I wish to vindicate myself from the imputation of having made, upon the presentation of a petition, a second speech upon the bill now upon your Lordships' table. 'I am sure it will be felt that I did not say more than the occasion called for. There is another topic upon which I think it necessary to say a few words. I think the noble Earl opposite will, upon reflection, be induced to think, that in the heat of debate he has gone further than he meant. I am not one of those who object to observations upon public men. I admit that he, believing we deserved to forfeit the confidence of Parliament, is fully entitled to If he had not gone further, and said that I belonged to a body which had forfeited its claim to public respect, I should have had no right to complain; but I do think that parliamentary usage affords no justification for his saying that we are ready to sacrifice the dearest interests of the country to retain our situations. That, I am sure he will upon reflection, see is against all parliamentary order. What I would desire to ask the noble Earl is this-Does be mean to say, that for the purpose of retaining our situations we are prepared to sacrifice the rights and interests of our country? say so. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and the Earl of Winchilsea rose at the same moment, and for a considerable time the calls for each appeared pretty equal, but the noble Duke eventually succeeded in obtaining a hearing. He was sure that the noble Earl merely meant that Ministers were ready to sacrifice what he (Earl W.) considered-not what they themselves considered to be, the rights of English men. The Earl of WINCHILSEA: I never meant to impute to the noble Earl opposite the sacrifice of any principle which he ever professed. Individually I feel the highest respect for the Lord HOLLAND said, there were still se veral petitions to present. The Earl of DUDLEY was understood to agree to the continued reception of petitions. Lord ROLLE rose to ask a question, but could not obtain a hearing. Lord HOLLAND said, he had a petition to present from the inhabitants of Boud-street; it was signed by 101 persons; there are little more than 200 householedrs in the street, and a large proportion of them were females, so that the inhabitants of Bond-street had now relieved themselves from the reproach to which they were liable amongst their fellowcitizens of being unfriendly to Reform. Lord WHARNCLIFFE said his mention of Bond-street and S. James's street was purely accidental. He merely referred to them as they presented themselves first to his mindnot from supposing that they were particularly adverse to Reform. Lord HOLLAND. If the noble Baron will only mention the particular street in which he supposes an opinion to prevail unfriendly to the bill, I am ready to pledge myself that I shall bring down to the House to-morrow a petition from the majority of the inhabitants of such street, setting the noble Lord right as to the state of their opinions. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Lord MULGRAVE rose amidst loud cries of "Order!" which for some moments prevented his being heard. He would stand there, he said, until it should be their Lordships' pleasure to hear him. (Order, and hear.) He assured his noble Friend, that in the remarks which he (Lord Mulgrave) had made upon the opinious of the inhabitants of Bond-street, he did not mean to disparage them in comparison with their fellow-citizens. All that he meant was, that if his noble Friend would take the trouble to extend his inquiries and perambulations to other streets, he would find the same specific contradiction of his statement, that the feelings of the people had cooled upon the subject of reform, as was afforded by the example which he himself (Lord Wharucliffe) had chosen. (Hear, hear, hear.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE had never said that the feelings of the people were altered on the general question of reform, but that a great part of them shrunk from the bill upon the table. Lord MULGRAVE had not read the petition" of their own hands; they have surjust presented by his noble Friend beside him" rounded themselves with all the secu(Lord Holland); but he believed that the rities which an army and the absolute petitioners earnestly prayed their Lordships to pass the bill now before them. (Hear, hear.) Lord Kenyon and the Marquess of Westminster rose together, amidst loud cries for the latter, to whom at length Lord Kenyon gave way. 66 Lord WESTMINSTER said, that the motion before the House was that the petition (from Bond-street) should lie upon the table; and as he bad presented a petition from the city of Westminster, of which the present petitioners are inhabitents, he begged leave to say a few words upon that petition. (Hear.) The noble" Baron opposite (Lord Wharncliffe) had said that the petition of the inhabitants of Westminster was far from being respectably sign ed-that it was a meagre petition, and, in" short, a failure altogether. (No, no! from" Lord Wharncliffe.) power of imprisonment at pleasure can give them; but be you assured that they tremble within. They are scared at the desolation which they have brought upon the country. They are compelled to smile upon the fundholders; and yet they would fain that there were no such people in "existence! Baffled in all their projects and prospects, they know not which way to turn themselves. Their Gamester in Hogarth, and their situprogress seems to be like that of the ation at this particular stage is nearly approaching to that of his, when, having ventured and lost his last desperate stake, you see him gnashing "his teeth, holding up above his head his two clenched fists, stamping upon the floor, and muttering curses, while the fundholders, who sit round the table, are sneering and scoffing at his "demoniac agitations. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose to order. (Great interruption by cries of "Hear!" and "Order!") He said, that the petition had been ordered to lie upon the table, and that, there-" fore, there was no question before the House." The Marquis of WESTMINSTER said, that the question respecting the petition had not been put, and that he was, accordingly, in order. (Hear, hear.) He had only to say, that if the inhabitants of Bond-street or St James-street, or any other street in Westminster, were opposed to the Reform Bill, they would have attended the meeting, and opposed the petition which he had presented. It was not to he believed, that if the majority" of the inhabitants of that city were of different opinions from those of the petitioners, they would not have attended at the meeting, and overwhelmed the reformers by their votes. 66 to cause the Bank to pay again in "Some time ago it was their project "specie; and, agreeably to that pro"ject, they issued the new silver cur rency. It appears to be now their project to get fresh quantities of paper again afloat; and, if they can "do that, the first effect of it will be, "the disappearance of the new silver currency, which, though inferior in "sterling value, will never long continue Thus, then, we stand, On Thursday" to circulate amidst such additional morning the sixth of October, one quantities of paper as will produce thousand eight hundred and thirty-one; any sensible effect in the raising and now, I think, we come to the" of prices and in the lowering the test of my memorable prophecy, con- "real amount of taxation. tained in my leave-taking address when" clearly see the possibility of augmentI fled to America to escape the dun-"ing the quantity of paper in circulageons of SIDMOUTH. After stating that " tion, seeing that the proprietors of that reform, for which a million and a "lands and of goods have nothing to half of us had actually petitioned the" offer in pledge for it. But, besides, Parliament; after stating that that re- "if it were to be effected, what treform alone could save the country from "mendous mischief it would produce! revolution, and stating how that reform" Suppose the paper thus put out to would soon deliver us from the accursed" reduce the value of the currency onefunding and paper system, the effects" third. A man who has made a conof which I then proceeded to describe," tract to-day to receive three hundred I proceeded thus:-"The borough-" pounds at a distant day, would in fact mongers are frightened at the work" receive only two-thirds of what he 66. 1 I do not "had contracted for. This real breach" opinions, of projects, of interests, and "of contract >>would take place with" of passions, shall go to pieces like a "respect to all bargains made at this" ship upon the rocks." "time, or recently made; all mortgages, "lands, leases, annuities, yearly wages "of servants, and every thing else of "that description. Goods sold on long "credit would share the same fate; and as there is perhaps many millions"worth of goods always sent to foreign "countries upon long credit; when the 46 money comes to be paid, it would be “paid in a currency of one-third less in "value than the currency calculated 66 upon when the goods were sold. Thus a merchant abroad, who must now "send three hundred pounds sterling "to discharge his debt to his creditor "here, would, in fact, have to send only two hundred pounds sterling in real money; because, two hundred pounds "in real money would purchase three "hundred pounds in the paper that "would then be afloat." 66 64 This was my propheey then; and it now depends, in all human probability, upon the conduct of the Lords and of the Ministry and the King, whether the last part of the prophecy or the first part of it shall be literally fulfilled. The Lords do not know that the country is absolutely convulsed with its distresses. They imagine that the club-houses are a specimen of the state of the country. My belief is, that a great deal more than one-half of the farmers and tradesmen are totally careless about all matters relative to the preservation of property. I believe that such is their state, that they hardly hope to be able to recover themselves by the operation of the ordinary and peaceable course of things, even if all the taxes were repealed. So that their Lordships are quite deceived if they think that even Here, then, the waves of the sys- men of property will be frightened at tem, by suddenly taking a swell in the sound of revolution. BARING was "this new direction, would overwhelma reported to have said, at the opening of new class of the community; and by the Parliament in October last, or soon "this time, the discredit of the paper afterwards, that the people were as well "would become so notorious to the off as they ever were, and that all the "world, that the people of all foreign disturbances and all the projects of "nations would keep aloof from it; change were produced by the then re"would begin to shake their heads, and cent French Revolution; so says the "exclaim, Babylon the Great is fallen.' | Duke of WELLINGTON still. I have re"What I am disposed to think, however, lated above, that, in a great proportion "is, that this project for getting out of the English counties, men of pronew quantities of paper-money will perty, men of sense, proposed, long be"not succeed; and yet, without it, the fore that French Revolution, to resort "interest of the debt cannot be paid out to a refusal of the payment of taxes ; "of the taxes; for though standing and that they only were prevailed upon armies and sedition bills and Habeas to wait in order to try the Parliament Corpus suspension bills are dread-once more for a reform. The Duke of "fully powerful things, their power is WELLINGTON was driven out of office not of that kind which enables people solely because he expressed his deter "to pay taxes. In all human probamination to grant no reform whatsoever. "bility, then, the whole of the interest In other respects, he was rather popular "of the debt and all the sinecures and than otherwise; but that declaration "pensions and salaries, and also the ruined him. It is notorious that Lord expenses of a thundering standing GREY came in in order to quiet the peoarmy, will continue to be made up, ple by promising them a Parliamentary "by taxes, by loans from the Bank, reform; is it, then, to be supposed that "by Exchequer Bills, by every species those who opposed this reform, having “of contrivance to the latest possible a great majority in the House of Com"moment, and until the whole of the mons elected under the old system paper system, amidst the war of even; is it to be supposed that they 66 66 66 could now come into power and govern that have occurred during the whole of the country in peace? Lord GREY has these six mouths of debating, nothing distinctly declared that he will not re-equals the nice little exposure which main in power a single day longer than Lord HOLLAND brought snugly in his he has a fair prospect of speedily carry-pocket for the Seigneur of WHARNCLIFFE, ing this measure; this is a most im- who had told them, on Monday night, portant declaration. The country un- that he had talked with the sensible derstand the full value of it; and, then, tradesmen of Bond-street, and that they who is to succeed him? Who is to had told him that they saw great carry on the Government in opposition danger in the Reform Bill. There are, to him? Why, when he came into it seems, two hundred houses in Bond power, it was as nearly anarchy as posstreet, many of them in the occupation sible: the Prime Minister could neither of women; and my Lord HOLLAND had, walk nor ride in the streets without in his pocket, a petition from a hun insult there were fights in the streets, dred and one men, shop-keepers in? » the people against the police, one Bond-street, praying the Lords not attacking and the other defending him. only to pass the bill, but to do It was impossible for that to go on it quickly. The same Seigneur of without a dreadful convulsion; without WHARNCLIFFE brought petitions from something or other that must have some persons at Ipswich, containing, as speedily brought order and law to an he said, a prayer against Reform. My end. What, then, should we have to Lord RADNOR took a peep into the peexpect now! To describe the state of tition, and found that the petitioners things that would arise if Lord GREY prayed most earnestly for a moderate and were to be driven out, and WELLINGTON suitable Reform, and he had found this put in his place, is a task that I shall to be the case in several other instances not undertake, and that for more reasons of anti-reform petitions. Out of the than one; but one is quite sufficient; 15,000 of whom Lord ELDON had preand that is, that I have not the power sented the petition against the Reform to describe it. Bill, it was discovered, that ten thousand The debate which I have just inserted, had been put down by mistake! The relative to the Birmingham petition, Seigneur of WHARNCLIFFE, finding was, to be sure, most triumphant for himself abandoned by Bond-street, said the ministers. They showed their su-that he did not confine himself to Bond periority over their opponents in every street, but that his observations expossible way. Without expressing ap- tended to London, Southwark, and all probation of the strong language made round about, upon which Lord HoLuse of at Birmingham, they suffered it LAND desired him to be so good as to to have its full weight with the country; name some one street somewhere, and they suffered the unanimous declaration he pledged himself to bring from that of 150,000 people, against the payment very street, a petition of nine-tenths of of taxes to have its full weight; and the inhabitants, praying for Reform. they were certainly right in so doing; In short, all the infamous lies, reprethey were right in letting the example senting the people to have cooled upon: of Birmingham operate on the people, the subject of Reform, now stand exand on the minds of their opponents. posed to open day; are now proved to The ridicule of Lord HOLLAND upon have been lies hatched for the purpose WELLINGTON and PEEL, exceeded any-of mischief: the Lords must see that thing of the kind that I have seen for a they have the whole of the people great many years; and the sting seems against them if they throw out this Bill.. to have been felt in a manner propor- They must see that all their objections tioned to its sharpness. It was a com-are futile: they must see, at any rate, ' plete and most admirable answer to all that the people pay no attention to that the Duke had said the night before those objections: they must see that in his defence. But, of all the things the question now is, whether they shall |