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hear), and so on from all the streets which \tbe measure in that House. He had originhis noble Friend might choose to name in the ally stated, that though he would submit to course of his prognostications, this would be any alteration that was consistent with the the best answer to his noble Friend's remarks, principle of the bill, he would not agree to and there he would leave them.
any that would detract froin its real efficiency. Earl Grey: After what his noble and learn- Tliat was the assertion which he had again ed Friend had said, it was hardly necessary made the other night; and he added, that if for him to make any observations on the their Lordships should reject the bill, he would remarks of the noble Lord opposite. He not be the person to propose any measure that joined in the protest against attributing the should be less conclusive. (Loud cheers.) idle and intemperate expressions of an indi. Those were the words which he had made use vidual to a wliole body. But their Lordships of ; and, to show that he had been rightly un. would not be prevented by idle and intempe- derstood, a noble Earl had, in the course of rate expressions from doing their duty. When that very evening, very nearly quoted his the bill in favour of the Roman Catholics was (Lord Grey's) observations verbatim. This, before their Lordships, they might well re- then, was the fact as to what he had said ; member what intemperate expressions were but did the House suppose that he was so igused on one side and the other; but the noble norant of the privileges of that House, or so Duke who was then at the head of the Ad presumptuous as to his own power, as to say ministration, had disregarded these intempe- what should or what should not take place in rate expressions, and passed that great and the committee? That alone depended on important measure. The noble Barou still their Lordships. (Cheers.) When the bill persisted that the general feeling of the coun- shall have reached the committee, the noble. try was not in favour of the Reform Bill; but Lord may propose any alteration he pleases, all that he would say in answer to that was to and, indeed; he ought to vote for the second appeal to tbe petitions that were laid on their reading, after his declaration of the other Lordships' table. (Hear, hear.) He was ready night, in order that the hill might go into to admit that there were persons of respect. committee. (Hear, hear.). When they heard ability in London who might entertain senti- the noble Lord assent to the disfranchisement ments unfavourable to reform; but he thought of rotten boroughs to the giving representhat it was rather too much to assume, that a tatives to populous and opulent places to. petition from 800 persons formed a satisfactory adding to the number of the county members ground for thinking that it spoke the senti- -the noble Lord had, in fact, assented to ments of the great body of that opulent city. the whole principle of the bill (loud cheers), (Hear, hear.) Witli respect to the meeting anıl all the rest was only a question of degree, at which the petition, presented by the noble which it was for the coinmittee to decide. Let Baron had been agreed to, it had been held the bill theu go into committee, and let the pursuant to no public advertisenient or notice; noble Lord, when it was there, propose his while, on the contrary, the meeting from alterations, and he (Earl Grey) would tell which emanated the petition that he (Earl the noble Lord what should be his (Earl Grey) had presented the other night, was held, Grey's) conduct in that case. If the noble after having been advertised for a week, iu Lord proposed alterations which he thought. the Egyptian Hall, and, being attended as calculated to diminish the effect of the bill, numerously as any former meeting, the peti- and, instead of making it a benefit, only turn.. tion was agreed to unanimously. It was true it into a delusion for the people, he (Earl Grey) that the petition in March had been signed would must strenuously oppose them; but, at more numerously, but that was owing to its the same time, he should be perfectly prelying a longer time for signature, and not to pared to discuss them, and to leave them to any falling off in the public opinion (hear, the decision of the committee. These were hear); and he believed that on investigation, the grounds on which he intended to act, and. it would be found that the people of Eugland which he had stated over and over again ; were now as much in favour of reform as they and after this explanation, he trusted that had been at any former period (cheers); and there would be no further misunderstanding as a proof, he would remind their Lordships ) of his intention. (Hear, hear.) He was that there were persons who previously would pledged to this measure, or one as efficient, pot acknowledye the public desire-who had and he would not be a party to anything that said that all the excitement was transient- should diminish it ; but he had not stated but who had at length very much altered their that alterations might not be made that tone (cheers), and had shown an inclination should not diminish its efficiency, or that he to accède to some sort of reform, having up was not prepared, in the committee, to conto that time expressed themselves adverse to sider any alterations that might be proposede any reform whatever. (Cheers.) The noble (Hear, hear.). Baron had said that he (Earl Grey) had re- The Earl of HADDINGTON said, that the fused to admit of any alteration in the bill. Lord Chancellor had read a lecture to his Now he really did think, that what he had noble Frieud for making a speech in answer stated on Monday night was sufficiently clear to the debate on the Reform Bill, but he for all men to understand. It was the same (Lord Haddingtou) thought that the pob le, that he had stated on the first mention of Earl who had just sat down bad been doing
exactly the same thing.' (Hear, hear.). With nificent a deduction from slender premises respect to the question brought before the as he had ever heard. (Laughter and cheers.) House by his poble Friend (Lord Wharo- Lord TENTERDEN agreed with the noble cliffe) he thought that the House bad a right and learned Lord as to the danger of reject. to complain that threats had been held out, ing a just and reasonable measure ;' but the and that they were not to be allowed to judge matter for them to consider was, wbether this of the bill on its own merits. (Hear, hear.) bill was just and reasonable (cheers); and in He believed, that although there was a ge. order that they might come to that consideraneral feeling in favour of reform, there were tion, he should move the order of the day for also great appreheosions as to the result, resuming the adjourned debate. should the bill pass into a 'law. (Hear, Earl GREY rose to order. There was a bear:)
question concerning a petition already before The Duke of BUCKINGHAM begged to recall the House, and there were other petitions to their Lordships to the question of the Bir. be presented. mingbam petition. He agreed with the noble Lord' TenTeRDEN had not been aware of and learned Lord that the sins of the few were that. piot to be visited on the many; and it was a The Earl of WICKLOW would not have ad. matter of congratulation to himn to hear that dressed their Lordships if there had only been noble and learned Lord state, that what had the words tead by the voble Baron to be combeen read by the noble Baron was only the plained of at the Birmingham meeting. But language of a single individual; and he he would ask the noble and learned Lord op would never believe, till be actually saw it, the Woolsack, whether his correspondent had that any body of Englishmen could be se informed him that one of the speakers, after duced by a demagogue to set themselves in having adverted to Hampden having refused to opposition to the institutions of the country. pay the ship-money, had stated that in like But he, nevertheless, begged the noble Earl munner he would refuse to pay the taxés; and to take warning by what had taken place at had then called upon those who would refuse with Birmingham, aud to recollect that this lan- him to hold up their hands, upon which the hands guage bad not been held out at a common of one hundred and fifty thousand persons were meeting, but at a political union, which the held up; after which he called on those who poble Earl had himself acknowledged, would not refuse, to hold up their hands, and (Cheers,) and with which he had himself there was not one exhibited. (Hear, bear, corresponded. With respect to the words wbich hear.) He should like to know whether, after had fallen from the nuble Earl on Monday that fact, the noble and learned Lord would might, he (the Duke), had taken a note of still maintain the peaceable, orderly, and them, and they were - Your Lordships must kindly disposition of the meeting at Birmingo take this bill" - upon which there were cheers ham. (Hear, hear,) on this side of the House, after which the The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that nothing poble Earl went un-" Your Lordships must could have been more natural than his noble - take this bill, or some other nieasure more and learned Friend's (Lord Tenterden's) mis
dangerous, which you may not be able to take, in supposing that they had been debating resist.' (Cheers from the Ministerial side:) for a couple of hours without a question before
Lord PLUNKEIT did not see there was any them; for it was a thing that they were in the thing in the words that had just been quoted habit of doing continually. (Hear, bear.) But by the noble Duke calculated to call for it so happened, most extraordinarily, that there reprehension. What his nuble Friend had was a question before them at that instant, stated was a matter of opinion ; and, as far as and he should avail himself of it to answer the that opiuion went, he must say that be en- query that bad been put 'to him by the noble tirely agreed with his noble Friend (Cheers); Earl who had just sat down. His correspondand he believed that any one acquainted with ent, he begged to say, had not mentioned the the consequences of rejecting a measure safe, fact which had just been stated by the noble, just, and reasouable, must feel tbat there Earl; nor had be (the Lord Chancellor) would be a demand on the part of the people heard of it till that moment. He certainly for something that would be unsafe, uvjust, did not like the fact, but what he had to say aad unreasonable. (Hear, hear.) With re- about it he would reserve for the debate on spect to what bad taken place at Birmingham, the bill. Undoubtedly it was a disagreeable be agreed that the words that had been quoted piece of intelligence (a laugh); but, devertheby the noble Barou were only chargeable on less, as a lawyer, he must say, that all those one individnal.
hands might have been held up, and yet he The Duke of BuCKINGHAM : On two or could not say that there was any breach of the three.
King's peace, or any offence that the law Lord PLUNKETT: Well, suppose it were so. knew how to punish. He could not help it. Upon this the woble Lord-because one, two, Such was the law. With respect to the or even three had acted improperly-pot oply" kindly” disposition of the meeting, that arraigned those, but told the House that there was a new word introduced by the noble Eart. was not owly a revolution in progress, but one What his correspondeut had stated, was, actually completed in the couutry. (Cheers that the meetiug was conducted as regularly and laughter.) This certainly was as-mago as one of their Lordships weetings (a laugb),
apd that it had separated as quietly as chil. that no breach of the peace had been comdren coming out of school. (A laugh.) mitted. The Chairman said it was a peaceable
The Earl of ELDON should be ashamed of meeting, meaning that there was no riut. himself, if, after living so long in his profession, Lord Tenterdes was not ungrateful to bis he did not take that opportunity of saying a noble and learued Priend upon the Woolsack few words. No man could be more ready thai for the admonition received from him, but he he was to admit that a meeting was not an- could assure the House, that even without that swerable for the declarations of an individual; admonition he should have refrained from but if by holding up their hands, or in any pronouncing any opinion, for the matter might other way, the meeting had endangered the come before bim judicially; and if his noble peace of the country, he kuew no reason for and learned Friend had not so addressed to the believing that they had not already fallen into House the necessary explanation, he himself the situation of heiug answerable to the laws should have felt bound to explain. of the country. (Hear, hear.) If those state- Lord WAARNCLIFFE and the Earl of Dudments which had been read to the House had ley rose at the same time, but the latter gave really been made, he would take the liberty way. The former said, he did not mean to of saying, that if those statements had come impute the words of the speech to any one but under the cognizance of the law officers of the person by whom it was spoken, or to fix the crown, and if no satisfactory, explanation responsibility for it upon any other person ; of them had been given, those authorities had but he desired to call the attention of Governnot done their duty to the country in failing to ment to this, that if they allowed such probring them under legal notice. (Cheers.) But ceedings to go on much further every-thing this being the case, he was necessarily disposed like legitimate authority in the country must to believe that there was sone way of account- cease. ing for men having presumed to make such Lord HOLLAND:-I do not rise for the purstatements. As a lawyer, he begged to apply pose of calling any one to order, but I would himself to the Lord Chief Justice of the King's beg to request the attention of the House, in Bench, and to the voble and learned Lord order that I may be allowed to state the condi. who, for so many years, bad presided over the tion in which matters now stand. The question Court of Common Pleas (Lord Wynford); before the House is, that a certain petition do and he desired to know from these noble and lie upon the table, and upon this a conversation learned Lords whether, if those hands had takes place. Now I have no intention of been held up in the manner that had been making observations upon the Birmingham described - and the fact could be proved-meering, or upon Political Unions, any further every individual in the meeting was not in point than to observe, that what we have heard tuof law as much answerable as the man who had vight is nothing more than a repetition of proposed to them to hold up their hands. (Hear, what the noble and learned Lord opposite has hear.) And he begged to tell the noble and ofteu said before upon similar occasions. For learned Lord (Brougbam), towards whom he example, when the Association in Ireland was should ever entertain the greatest respect, that under discussion, and also in the case of that seat on the Woolsack would not be a seat various other associations in other places, he which any one could maintain for six months, over and over again told us, that the country if the doctrines which were now circulated could uot last if such things were allowed to: throughout the couniry-which were every coutinue. I confess it has always appeared to morning placed under the review of every one me, that discussions of this nature will neither -were suffered to be promulgated any longer. redound to the honour or digoity of this House, (Hear, hear.) That was his opinion ; he or in the least degree assist our deliberations. alone was answerable for his opinions, and However, up in that subject I will not trouble for that he was prepared to auswer at all your Lordships with any observations, neither hazards.
shall I say much upon any other topic; but I The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, not so much cannot refrain from just' noticing what fell for the pucpose of replying to the observations from a noble Baron as to the feeling of the just made, as for the purpose of preventing city of London, and which I cannot for a mohis noble and learned friend under ihe gallery ment allow to pass witbout registering my from answering the question put to bim. Iffdissent. But as to what fell from a noble the matter in question were an indictable Baron on the Cross Beuch, I will assert, that offence, his noble and learned Friend might nothing more unjust, more unwarrantable, or be called upon to try it, and therefore he mure uncalled for, was ever uttered. The would at present feel the impropriety of de words of the noble Duke were quoted, and livering apy opinion respecting the law as ap- what do these words amount to ?- If you reject plicable to the acts done. it was quite a this bill you will soon have another bill for remistake to suppose that he (the Lord Chancel form, though not from the same hands or from for) had given the slightest countenance to the the same government--that would be a bill in Birmingham meeting: he merely said
that truth more uupalatable to some of your Lord. no breach of the peace had been committed slips, though, probably, mure in accordance An indictment might be preferred for an of. with the votes of this House. I can think iu fence of another nature; upon that he gave such circumstances of a noble Lord or noble Do opinion : he went no further than to say Duke who had previously, declared, that no
thing could induce him to form part of any I do not deny that I always felt strongly the government which sauctioned a measure attempts that were made to intimidate your of reform. I can now fancy such a poble Lordships ; but for that Meeting which has * Duke coming down to this House and been described in the paper produced in this saying:-" Things are now post materi- House, and for all such Meetings I feel the ally changed-there is a collision between greatest contempt; and I ain perfectly satisthe House of Lords and the House of fied that the House is superior to any intimi. Commons, I know what war is and dation fouuded on the proceedings of any you do not.
I told you I had no inten- such assemblages. I feel no concern for all tion of bringing forward a measure of re. These threats, whether proceeding from Birform), but now the state of things is most mingham or elsewhere. I have always materially changed; but don't allow large thought, and I think still, that the law is too. Meetiogs such as Birmingham to intimidate strong to be overborne by such proceedings you-be bold, be stout, be determined. But I kuow further, that there does exist throughif the association be once formed, you must out this country a strong feeling of altachment give way, then there is danger of war, and to the Government of the country, as by law agitators are abroad; and I know what war established. I know that the people look up is, and I tell you you are in a different situa- to the law 'as their best means of protection, tion from that in which you before stvod, and aud thuse laws they will not violate in any I will drag you through the mire after having manner to endanger the Government of the before bespattered you.” It is just possible country, or any of its established institutions. that a noble Duke might hold such lan- I am afraid of none of these, but I will tell guage. Is it not just possible that a right your Lordships what I am afraid of. I am hun. Gentleman in another place might say afraid of revoluţion, and revolutionary.measomething of the same sort? He might say sures, brought in and proposed by his Ma. “ My opinions are not altered -I am really jesty's Government. (Long-continued and opposed to the bill, but there is danger, and enthusiastic cheering from the Opposition it is only to dauger that I would yield ; and, i benches.) I assert, and I believe that therefore, I recommend you to make conces- history will bear me out in the assertion, that sions to the dangerous spirit of the times.' there has been no revolution in this country, Surely, my Lords, you cannot fail to ask or any great change, which has not been yourselves this-Is it not much more dignified brought about by the Parliament, and geneto yield before there is danger than aster- rally by the Governmeut introducing measures wards ? As respects this House, the present and carrying them through by the influence is now a virgin question. If you agree to reform of the Crown. I would therefore entreat your now, it becomes the spontaneous act of this Lordships to do all you can to defeat this House. I inquire of your Lordships, is not measure-use every means of resistance which such a course more consistent with the digni-' the just exercise of your privileges will warty of this House, and likely to prove more rant, and trust to the good sense of the advantageous to vurselves? There is no country to submit to the legal and just decision shrinking from this truth-either that you you come to. (Cheers.) must take the bill now, or be forced by cir. The Earl of Carlisle said, that none of cumstances to adopt hereafter a measure full the revolutions which occurred in this coun. as efficient, and, perhaps, less acceptable to try were brought about by Parliament. He this House; whereas, if the proposer change wished to inquire from the noble Duke who be adopted before the danger arises, all idea had just sat down, if he meant to say that the of intimidation will be out of the question. reformatiou of the Church of this country was (Cheers.)
a parliamentary revolution, or if the revoThe Duke of WELLINGTON.--The noble lution of 1688 was a parliamentary revolution, Baron rose, and made a speech to order ; and and were there any other revolutions besides I never recollect a speech more inconsistent those ? with order, or with the practice of this llouse. The Earl of WinCHILSEA could not suffer On the question,." That the petition do lie the unwarrantable atrach whick bad been . upon the l'able,” the noble Baron referred to made upon a uoble Duke near him to pass
a debate, going on, I may say, upon a subject without notice. He could not allow without now under the consideration of Parliament; notice, that auy noble Lord should say of thật and he also referred to a debate on a subject noble Duke that he would aim at obtaining respecting which I rather thought that, for office by a sacrifice of principle. (Cries of once in my life, I possessed the approbation "No, uo!" from the Treasury bench.). A of the noble Baron. This discussion has now more unjustifiable attack than that which had lasted some tiine; but during the whole of it been made upon the noble Duke, he had I remained silent. I did not wish to draw never beard. Though he (Lord Winchilsea) your atteution to the bill now, on your Lord- differed from that noble Person upon a great ships' table, upou an occasion merely of pre- and memorable occasion, yet he gave bim the senting a petition. I have not said one word, fullest credit for perfect sincerity, and for an I have not uttered a cheer during the present earnest wish to maintain the peace of the debate, and I do not see how my sentiments country. It was with much regret that he can with propriety be brought into discussion, had now to acknowledge' tliat he assisted in
* removing that noble Duke from office, and noble Earl, Su great was my respect for him, putting in place of him and his colleagues a that I did feel the strongest inclination to Ministry deserving neither the confidence of support his Government, for I felt quite sure Parliament, nor the respect of the country- that he would be the last man in the country a Ministry ready to sacrifice the dearest rights who would retract a word he had uttered, or and interests of the country, and incur the swerve from any principle he professed, and hazard of overturning all the established iusti- the noble Duke near me has correctly intertutious, from too great a facility in yielding preted my sentiments. I did meau to impute to clamour and popular excitement, rather to the noble Earl merely the intention to dethan listening to the dictates of good sense stroy what I conceive to be the dearest rights and sound policy. . The noble and learned of the country. Lord upon the Woolsack had laid down a Earl Grey expressed himself perfectly sa. doctrive to wbich he (Lord W.) could not sub- tisfied. scribe, namely-thai to refuse those taxes There was then a very general call for the which the necessities of the country and the Order of the Day; but honour of the Sovereign demanded, was do Lord HOLLAND said, there were still several breach of the public peacehe would say it petitions to present. was treason; and if the Government did their The Earl of Dudley was understood to duty, they would instantly prosecute the per- agree to the continued reception of petitions. sons accused of such an offence.
Lori ROLLE rose to ask a question, but could Lord HOLLAND rose to explain : he did not not obtain a hearing: cast any imputation upon the sincerity of the Lord HOLLAND said, he had a petition to - Doble Duke-neither did he raise any ques- present from the inhabitants of Bood-street ; . tion as to bis motives for accepting or rejecting it was signed by 101 persons; there are little office. The noble Lord then recapitulated the more than 200 householedrs in the street, and speech given above.
a large proportion of them were females, so Earl GREY. I wish to vindicate myself from that the inhabitants of Bond-street had now the imputation of having made, upon the relieved themselves from the reproach to presentation of a petition, a second speech which they were liable amongst their fellowupon the bill now upon your Lordships' table. citizens of being unfriendly to Reform. I am sure it will be felt that I did not say more Lord WHARNCLIFFE said his mention of than the occasion called for. There is another Bond-street and Si. James's street was purely topic upon which I think it necessary to say a accidental. He merely referred to them as few words. I think the noble Earl opposite they presented themselves first to his mindwill, upon reflection, be induced to think, that not from supposing that they were particularly in the heat of debate he has youe further than adverse to Reform. he meant. I am not one of those who object Lord HOLLAND. If the noble Baron will to observations upon public men. I admit only mentioa the particular street in which he that he, believing we deserved to forfeit the supposes an opinion to prevail unfriendly to confidence of Parliament, is fully entitled to the bill, I am ready to pledge myself that I say so.
If he had not gone further, and said shall bring down to the House to-morrow a that I belonged to a body which had forfeited petition from the majority of the inhabitants its claiın to public respect, I should have had of such street, setting the noble Lord right as no right to complain; but I do think that to the state of their opinions. (Hear, hear, and parliamentary usage affords no justification a laugh.) for his saying that we are ready to sacrifice Lord MULGRAve rose amidst loud cries of the dearest interests of the couutry to retain " Order !" which for some moments prevented our situations. That, I am sure he will upon his being heard. He would stand there, he
reflection, see is against all parliamentary said, until it should be their Lordships' pleasure order. What I would desire to ask the noble to hear him. (Order, and hear.) He assured Earl is this-Does be mean to say, that for the his noble Friend, that in the remarks which purpose of retaining our situations we are he (Lord Mulgrave) had made upon the opiprepared to sacrifice the rights and interests nives of the inhabitants of Bond-street, he did of our country?
not mean to disparage them in comparison The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and the Earl of with their fellow-citizens. All that he meant Winchilsea rose at the same moment, and for was, that if his noble Friend would take the a considerable time the calls for each appear- trouble to extend his inquiries aud perambulaed pretty equal, but the noble Duke eventu. tions to other streets, he would find the same ally succeeded in obtaining a hearing. He specific contradiction of his statement, that the was sure that the noble Earl merely meant feelings of the people had cooled upon the that Miuisters were ready to sacrifice what he subject of reform, as was afforded by the ex(Earl W.) considered—not what they them- ample which he himself (Lord Wbarucliffe) selves considered to be, the rights of English- had chosen. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Lord WHARNCliffe had never said that the The Earl of WinChilsea : I never meant feelings of the people were altered on the to impule to the noble Earl opposite the sacri- general question of reformn,, but that a great fice of any principle which he ever professed. part of them shrunk from the bill upon the ludividually I feel the highest respect for the table.