SENATE.] Reduction of Postage. [JANUARY 2, 1833. trate, who had sworn to support, and who would maintain pacific in its character, has been assailed by a most exthe constitution; and most of all, he relied on the patriot-traordinary course of argument. Its friends have been ism of the people; but he was not disposed to throw an charged with an almo t treasonable conspiracy to keep additional firebrand to destroy the harmony of the coun- on the tariff, and to continue the present price of the try. There were two great objects which seemed to be public lands. We have been directly informed, that the kept in view by one of the great parties, to prevent any tariff and this price must come down; that we are not to reduction of the tariff duties, and to keep up the price flinch from it, for the people demand it. Sir, does the of the public lands. One part of the country was op-resolution on your table, when duly considered, touch posed to the first measure, and another section to the last. either of those subjects? or are we justly chargeable it was not to be expected that members from the South with aggravating the excitement of this too much agitated and the West, who believed the salvation of the Union country? Why, Mr. President, so far as honorable gendepended on the reduction of the tariff, and the price of tlemen have given us their views on the proposition, the public lands, would vote for any of those measures which most of them, and some from the far West too, are friendthrew additional burdens on the treasury. Such were ly to the reduction of the postage, if it can be safely made. his views; and no ingenuity, no argum nt, no sophistry, Why then should a plain question of practical expedienwould induce him to move from the course which his duty cy be distracted in its discussion, by imputations of hosenjoined on him to pursue. His mind was made up. It tility to the wishes of a part of the country in the matters was unnecessary for him to disguise himself; the time had of the tariff and the public lands? Sir, no Senator come when the tariff and the price of pub ic lands mut will be driven from his duty; no one, it is hoped, means be reduced; and all the schemes to keep them up to their to evade the tariff question, or flinch in the discharge of present scale could not succeed. The tariff must and his official obligations, when it comes up for our delibewould come down; and they could not consent to put the ration. But, said Mr. F., all we ask is, that it may wait public lands on the treasury. It was necessary to see its time; and not that it should embarrass all our legislawhere retrenchment could be made, in order that all un- tion, and be raised up, by way of terror, against any and necessary burdens might be abolished. every measure that, by its own distinct merits, claims our distinct consideration, The Returning to the subject of the post office, he said it might be true that the East paid more for the facilities af Then, sir, as it regards the resolution now before us, forded by the post office than the West. But suppose it is worthy of notice, that the present rates of postage it were so; were there not other points where the East have been established for more than twenty years. received more than a quid pro quo? was this no consider-great increase of commercial business, and of the literary, ation? The greater part of the pension money was ex-political, and friendly intercourse of our fellow-citizens pended there. True, it was said, there was more patriot-in that period, have vastly augmented the powers and ism, more industry, in that part of the country, and it enlarged the means of this department. I should promight be so. The West made no complaint; but how bably be on this side of the fact, to set down these rcmany citizens of Missouri, or of Indiana, were employed sources at an increase of tenfold? We are also to take by the Government, or supported by the public treasury? The avantages of the post office to the West were more than compensated by the greater advantages enjoyed by the East. into our reflections another incident: that in the principal commercial routes of the mail, from Boston through to Baltimore for example, the cost of transportation has not advanced a dollar in all the time of the present rates; The gentleman from Ohio had said that the committee nay indeed, sir, by the facilities of steamboat carriage, he'd the same opinions on the subject of reduction now, it has sensibly diminished. Then I submit it to the calm which they held last year. How the gentleman came to discretion of the Senate, whether the occasion has not this conclusion, he did not know. This was not the same reached us, when it is fit, and a most appropriate duty, proposition as was before the committee last year. There to give attention to the strong claims of those who chiefly was a great dfference between taking the postage from endure this burden, and extend some seasonable relief? newspapers and reducing the postage on letters. By the But it has been urged in opposition to the measure, adoption of this resolution, the Senate did not ask the that we shall thereby cripple the department, and that committee if it was necessary to reduce the rats, but they the Postmaster General should not be restricted in his decided that it was necessary, and that they should be re-operations. This argument, said Mr. F., is pressed too duced. No discretion whatever was allowed to the com- far. When it is seen from the report of the head of this mittee, although they would be enabled to give that department, that during a single year, and that the last, information which would satisfy the Senate as to the pro- the travel of the mail has been increased exceeding priety of reduction. He desired to send the subject to 8,156,000 miles, while it reflects great credit upon the the committee, and, after they had reported, the Senate activity and promptitude of the department, yet Mr. could dispose of the report as they might decide. He President, do not such numbers as these justify the opiconsidered the views taken by the Senator from Ohio, of nion, in the view of the heavy rates of postage, that the oppressiveness of this tax upon the poor man, by some restriction may be not only quite safe but very compelling him to pay a portion of the Government pos- prudent? tage, to be a fallacious one, The burden fell very lightly on the poor man, who did not get a letter once in six months; the poor well understood the matter; they had both heads and hearts; they knew when they asked for a fish, and received a stone. Again: we are told that the post office must not be made a drain upon the treasury, but be left to sustain itself. This plea is fallacious, and the mere magic of phrases may mislead us. Sir, what is intended by the department sustaining Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN said the resolution of his honor- itself? It has no means but those furnished by taxation. able friend from Maine submitted to the opinion of the It is the people that sustain the department: and thereSenate the simple proposition, that the rates of postage fore, when in our judgment the amount of support afought to be reduced. It prescribed neither the mode, forded becomes greater than the just wants of public amount, nor time of reduction; but in the present condi- convenience, or the fair and equal proportion of burdens tion of the Post Office Department, with all its facilities that should be assessed upon those who pay-why, if, and receipts, the resolution sought of the Senate an ex- notwithstanding this, gentlemen mean, by sustaining itself, pression favorable to some alleviation of a very onerous that it is to use up all the funds that flow into it, be they and unequal tax upon the business part of the communi- what they may, sir, all must feel that such an argument ty. Yet, Mr. President, this proposition, so general and is without weight or reason. We must look beyond the JANUARY 2, 1833.] Reduction of Postage. [SENATE. post office; to those who contribute its means, and by if the amendment was adopted, what then? He thought righteous measures, apportion their burdens. the committee, if they were of opinion that reductions conMoreover, Mr. President, this establishment, immensely sistent with the means of the department could be made, enlarged as it has been, does sustain itself and more. would report a bill making such reductions as would We have the statement, on the official authority of the leave no funds at the discretion of the department. But Postmaster General, that for the last year, notwithstand- if they were ordered in the peremptory terms of the reing the multiplication of mail routes, far surpassing any solution, the committee could not fail to report a substanformer year, the nett receipts have exceeded those of tial reduction, even if it should take half a million or a the year preceding $260,000, and which sum will ex-million out of the treasury. ceed the additional amount required for transportation by Mr. BIBB, in rising, said he did not design to take any more than a $100,000. With such abundant prosperity, further part in the general discussion. The argument why should we hesitate to consider and act in this matter, was now reduced to a single point, and every Senator had when gentlemen who oppose profess entire willing to make up his opinion on the alternative, whether the ness to reduce the postage, if the department can bear it? department should be burdened on the treasury, or susIt was insisted in further objection to the resolution, tained by its own funds. According to the report of the that it left but little discretion to the Post Office Com-Postmaster General, there was now a surplus of $100,000 mittee; and, indeed, restrained it to a degree almost dis-over the expenses of the department, and this calculation respectful. Why, sir, this is urging difficulties a great was bottomed on the account of the whole postage reway. The proposition is of most general import. The ceipts without diminution, leaving nothing for losses or Senate will fix nothing but the propriety of a reduction, deficiencies, and it was allowed on the understanding that and then refer over to the committee the entire subject, no new mail routes were to be established. Without with all its details. It will leave them to arrange the rates looking to contingencies or future extension, we are now to after juster proportions, to report on what items a re-dispose of this $100,000. The whole revenue of the deduction should be made, and to ascertain the amount. partment appeared to be about $2,200,000, and upon And if there be a majority of the Senate in favor of the this sum a reduction to the amount of $100,000 would be proposition, it is surely desirable, even to the committee, in the proportion of about four and a half per cent. This that it should be known; as we now understand, that no was all which could be touched. They were now rebill for a reduction of the postage will be reported from quired to take off a cent from every six cents postage, that committee, unless upon such a resolution as is under and they would thus be going into fractional reductions consideration. which would be productive of great inconvenience, both And, in conclusion, to evince the pacific character of to the individual and to the department. He would ask the resolution, in defence against the charge of harsh in- if it was proper for the Senate to legislate for the purterference with the duties of the department and the com-pose of making a reduction of four and a half per cent. mittee, take the case of postage on single and double let-it was too small a subject for legislation. He had last ters. Why, there is no one who doubts the arbitrary session been in favor of a reduction of the postage on disproportion of the assessment. That a letter paying newspapers, but it was a definite reduction, which left it twenty-five cents postage should pay fifty for another clear what amount woull remain in the department. In leaf, or even any small fragment of it, is an inequality the present case, no one could tell the effect of the rethat can be justified on no principle; and so it has been ductions, or how much the reductions were to be. He conceded in argument at this time. Then, Mr. Presi- could not vote for so indefinite a proposition. dent, a reduction of this rate should the committee be unwilling to go further, would meet and justify the whole scope of the resolut on. The truth is, there are no serious difficulties whatever in the way of a proper adjustment, and he hoped that the amendment would not prevail, but a distinct instruction be sent to the committee for a bill to reduce the rates of postage. Mr. SPRAGUE said that the reasons which he had presented on a former day in favor of the original resolution, had, in his opinion, received no satisfactory answer. He did not now intend to recapitulate them, but merely to notice, very briefly, the remarks which had just been offered in favor of the amendment. The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. BIBB] says that a reduction of four and Mr. POINDEXTER said that in order to prevent any a half per cent. would be but a very trifling affair, unmisapprehension as to his vote, he wished to state that in worthy of attention and inconvenient in its operation. voting against the amendment, and for the original resolu-But who has proposed such a reduction? Not my resolution, he did not intend to commit himself to vote for any tion, nor any gentleman who has sustained it; nobody but bill which might be reported. He thought some reduc- the honorable member himself has suggested four and a tions of the rates of postage necessary. The bill would half per cent. as the extent of the diminution. It is his be of course reported in blank, and it would be for the Senate to fill up the blanks. He should, therefore, without entering into the various topics which had been brought into this discussion, vote for the instruction, leaving it to be determined hereafter how far reduction ought to be carried. The subjects of the tariff and the public lands, which had been mixed up with this debate, he considered as extraneous. Whenever those subjects should come sury. It is repeated and reiterated that the department up, he would be prepared to give his vote upon them. For the present, without entering into any of the details of the subject, he should vote for the resolution in its original form. own proposition, then, which the gentleman pronounces to be insignificant and vexatious, and I certainly have no disposition to interpose between him and his offspring. The chairman of the Committee on the Post Office and Post Roads [Mr. GRUNDY] has presented, in various forms, and under all its aspects, the objection that a reduction will involve the necessity of calling upon the national trea should sustain itself; that if you once allow the precedent of calling for any aid from the treasury, no bounds or limits will or can be prescribed to its inread, and horrible pictures of extravagance and ruin are conjured up Mr. GRUNDY said he did not rise to go into this de- by the affrighted imagination. One would think that to bate again, but merely to express what, in his view, would receive aid from the general funds of the Government be the duty of the committee. Should the amendment be was a violation of uniform practice and fixed principles, rejected, and the resolution be adopted in its original when, in fact, the Post Office Departmer has, ever since form, the committee, without regard to the means of the the organization of the Government required aid, receivdepartment, would of course report a bill making substan-ed annual appropriations from the national treasury. For tial reductions in the rates of postage. They would be several years last past those demands have averaged nearly compelled to do so, under the mandate of the Senate. But seventy thousand dollars. The new precedent, against SENATE.] Reduction of Postage. [JANUARY 2, 1833. which the note of alarm is sounded so loudly, is found in ment. It saves that amount to the national treasury. Suptruth to have been the uniform practice from the first days pose, then, that this-the worst consequence that has been of the department to the present moment. This simple apprehended or predicted by any one, the payment from fact, I trust, will be sufficient to dispel extravagant appre- the treasury of the Government postage--should ensue hensions, and enable us to look calmly at the justice and from the proposed reduction of rates, would there be any expediency of the proposed measure. injustice? Nay, sir, is it not necessary, in order to preserve the principles of equal taxation for common benefits? The original proposition simply and singly declares that there shall be some reduction of the rate of postage. The amount, the mode, the items, and the time, are left The present rates of postage are essentially the same as to the consideration of the committee and the future de- those established forty years ago, in the infancy of the termination of the Senate. Now, sir, to the only objection country; when the wants of the Government were urgent, which has been urged, that the department will not be and the experience of the department nothing; when the able to sustain itself, there are several satisfactory answers: roads were bad, the difficulties of transportation great, First. That a reduction of some of the rates of postage and the business transacted small. Since that time there does not necessarily involve a diminution of the receipts have been, throughout the whole country which was traof the department; on the contrary, there is good reason versed by the mails when the rates were originally estato believe that rendering the transportation cheaper, in blished, a wonderful, an astonishing increase in the faci some particulars would increase the amount. Take, for lities of transportation and the amount of business; and yet example, double and treble letters; the smallest piece of this tax upon the diffusion of light and knowledge is kept paper, a bank bill enclosed, duplicates the tax, without up to its full original amount. And still the department, increasing the labor of transportation. If the expense was which originally sustained itself, cannot now, we are told, less, would not the number be increased? Would not bear a reduction, because, in that event, it will not be able thousands of such letters be put into the mail that are now to stand upon its own revenues. Why will it not be able intrusted to a more precarious and procrastinated con- to stand alone? Because of the continual enlargement of veyance by private hand; and by proper restriction as to facilities and expenses upon unproductive post routes, and weight, public convenience, and the revenue of the de- the extension of the franking privilege. If this argument partment, both be advanced? I might also adduce, in is allowed to be sound, the time can never arrive when further illustration, cases of short distances, and easy communication, where private, to a degree, supplants public conveyance. But the principle that a reduction of the rate of tax may increase the revenue, is too well known and established to need illustration; and yet the assumption that it must and will certainly diminish the receipts, is the foundation of the objection to the resolution. the citizens of any portion of the country can anticipate a diminution in the onerous burden upon the circulation of information. No matter what improvements they make, at their own expense, in the construction of highways, railroads, and canals; even if they reduce the expense to the Government to less than half its original amount, while the increase of business may more than quadruple the reBut suppose that the revenue from postage should be ceipts from postage, still the money thus drawn from them diminished, it would not necessarily require supplies from will forever be expended by the Postmaster General. the treasury; it might be met by greater economy in the There will always be contractors and agents asking extra disbursements of the department; by a less amount of allowances; there will always be a desire for an extension extra allowances made at the mere discretion and uncon- of the frank; there will always be new, and unprofitable, trolled will of the Postmaster General to contractors; by and unnecessary routes to absorb the whole funds; and a less liberal or lavish_expenditure for unprofitable and we shall always be told that the head of the department unnecessary routes. In these respects there has been, has made arrangements to expend the whole revenue; and, and still is, a wide and almost unlimited scope for the therefore, we must never touch the rates of postage. It mere discretion of the Postmaster General. No depart- has been objected that those who receive the benefit of ment of this Government has so much patronage, and so the mails should pay the expense. If so, the Government, little responsibility; and this has arisen from the ideal di- then, should pay for the amount of its accommodation, vorce between this and the other branches of the public and the unproductive routes should meet their own exservice. "The post office sustains itself," is the reply to penses. But this is more than I ask. As the matter now all complaint, and the shield against all scrutiny. It seems stands, the Government transportation, and the unproalmost to have claimed and enjoyed immunity from inves-ductive mails are both thrown upon the productive routes, tigation, by folding itself in its own robes, and saying it to the subversion of equality and justice. "sustains itself." But how does it sustain itself? Is it The gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. BIBB] has heretonot by a tax upon the people? Is it not by the money of fore strongly advocated an abolition of the postage on our constituents? Shall we not, then, inquire to what ex-newspapers; and, as my proposition is simply that there tent this burden is necessary, and whether it is levied upon shall be some reduction of the rate of postage, I had conprinciples of justice? You or I, sir, and other officers of fidently anticipated that it would conciliate his support. the Government, and the Government itse, enjoy an im- But although still in favor of a reduction, he is opposed to munity from this tax. "Free" is subscribed upon our instructing the committee to reduce, lest they should not communications, and they are transported to the remotest make the particular modification which he has at heart. corners of the Union without charge; but at whose ex- He fears to give the committee so much latitude of dis pense? From whom does the department draw the money cretion, and yet he is in favor of this amendment, which which pays for this transportation? Is it not from the post-has no other effect than to enlarge that discretion. He age paid by private citizens? They then pay not only the will not trust the committee with a limited power as to expense of conveying their own letters and newspapers, the particulars in which the reduction shall be made, but but those of the Government also. The packages, books, prefers a proposition which gives them every latitude, not and documents thus diffused, are not for the benefit merely only as to the items and amount, but whether there shall of those who pay the postage, but of the whole country. be any reduction or not. I had hoped, sir, that the origiThe benefit is general; should not the burden also be ge-nal proposition being single, simple, and unencumbered neral? by details, would command the support of every member The postage upon Government documents would be who is in favor of any diminution; and, notwithstanding half a million of dollars a year. This department, then, his argument, I hope we shall yet have the vote even of not merely sustains itself," but contributes by its labor the Senator from Kentucky himself. half a million of dollars annually to the aid of the Govern- Mr. SMITH rose to move to lay the subject on the ta JANUARY 2, 3, 1833.] Reduction of Postage.--Duties on Imports. ble, in order to follow it with a motion to proceed to the consideration of Executive business. Mr. SERAGUE hoped that the Senate would now take the question. He would not say another word. Mr. SMITH then yielded. [SENATE. Grundy, Hill, Kane, King, Mangum, Robinson, Smith, NAYS.-Messrs. Bell, Bibb, Black, Chambers, Clay, Mr. MILLER rose to give, in a word or two, the reasons which would induce him to vote against the resolution. If the Senate gave an instruction to their commit- The question then recurred upon the amendment offertees, the instruction ought to be definite. This resolution ed by Mr. BROWN, to strike out the whole of the oriwas so defective in this particular, that the committee ginal resolution and insert the proposition reported by the might substantially avoid the reductions which were ex- Committee on Finance, to wit: pected. They are directed to do something, or to do nothing. If responsibility was to be taken from the committee, they ought to be plainly instructed what they were to do. He would vote in favor of the amendment, and whenever the committee should make their report, if any gentleman should offer a proposition more agreeable to him than the report, he would vote for it. The question was then put on the amendment offered by Mr. GRUNDY, and decided as follows: YEAS. Messrs. Benton, Bibb, Black, Brown, Buckner, Dallas, Forsyth, Grundy, Hendricks, Hill, Kane, King, Mangum, Miller, Moore, Robinson, Smith, Tipton, White, Wilkins.--20. NAYS. Messrs. Bell, Chambers, Clayton, Dickerson, Ewing, Foot, Frelinghuysen, Holmes, Knight, Naudain, Poindexter, Prentiss, Robbins, Seymour, Silsbee, Sprague, Tomlinson, Webster.--18. So the amendment was agreed to. "That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed, with as little delay as may be, to furnish the Senate with the projet of a bill for reducing the duties levied upon imports, in conformity with the suggestions made by him in his annual report." Mr. POINDEXTER, in a few words, opposed the amendment and supported the original proposition. Be Mr. CLAY rose to signify his desire to receive from the Treasury Department some specification of the articles deemed essential to the national defence in time of war. It was made the duty of that department to furnish all necessary information connected with the finances of the country. The knowledge which the department must be supposed to possess of the general course of trade, and the operation of any given reduction upon the finances, rendered the views of the Secretary necessary to a more correct understanding of the subject. fore he recently left the city, he had, in conversation, expressed a wish to see the plan of the Treasury Department in a specific and responsible form for the reduction of the revenue, and particularly a specification of those articles which were considered by the Executive and the Secretary as essential to national defence. As it respected the form in which this information should be imbodied, it was not a matter of much consequence, whether in the shape of a bill or in a detailed report. He, however, agreed with those who contended that the Senate should not call on the Executive or the head of a departMr.ment for the projet of a bill. He felt warranted in saying that the practice had never existed for the Senate, as The question recurring on the resolution as amended, Mr. FOOT moved to amend the same by inserting after the word "reducing," the words "and equalizing." He explained that the object was to do away the inequality and injustice which prevailed under the present sys tem. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. HOLMES then moved further to amend the resoJution, by adding the words "and particularly of abolishing the postage on newspapers." After a few words from Mr. GRUNDY and HOLMES, this amendment was also agreed to. The resolution and amendment was then agreed to a body, to call in this way for a bill. It was not unusual without a division. Adjourned. THURSDAY, JANUARY 3. When the doors were opened, the Senate resumed the consideration of the following resolution, submitted by Mr. POINDEXTER on the 17th ult.: or improper for committees to do so; bnt if there were any precedents where either the Senate or House of Representatives had called on the head of a department for a bill, it had escaped his recollection. He should be sorry to see such a practice obtain; because it might be carried in time to such an extent, as to deprive Congress of its legitimate powers, and no bill might be permitted to pass, unless a projet was furnished by the Department. He should vote against the amendment, and in favor of the original resolution. Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be directed to report to the Senate, with as little delay as practicable, a detailed statement of the articles of foreign Mr. SMITH considered that there was no great differgrowth or manufacture on which, in his opinion, the pre-ence between the two propositions. The original resolusent rate of duties ought to be reduced; specifying particu- tion asked for the opinions of the Secretary--the latter larly the amount of reduction on each article separately, so called for facts. We wanted facts, and not opinions. He as to produce the result of an aggregate reduction of the was opposed to calling for the opinions of the head of any revenue six millions of dollars, on such manufactures as department. It had been the practice to call upon Mr. are classed under the general denomination of protected Hamilton, when Secretary of the Treasury, for opinions; articles; and that he also append to such report an enu- which opinions had great weight, and were with many meration of articles deemed to be "essential to our na-equal to law. These calls on Mr. Hamilton were made tional independence in time of war," and which, there- by his friends, with a view, probably, to influence others; fore, ought, in his opinion, to be exempted from the operation of the proposed reduction of duties. The question being on the amendment of Mr. KING, proposing to strike out the clause of the resolution commencing "and that he also append to such report," &c. Mr. POINDEXTER repeated, substantially, some of the arguments used by him on a former occasion, against the proposed amendment. The question was then taken, and the amendment was rejected by the following vote: YEAS.--Messrs. Benton, Brown, Dudley, Forsyth, but, in this case, he imagined the opinions of the present Secretary of the Treasury would weigh but little with the Senator from Mississippi, [Mr. POINDEXTER.] He believed that Congress had called on Mr. Dallas for the projet of a bill. The original resolution was indefinite in all respects. The other proposition would answer the purpose which gentlemen desired, as the projet of a bill would explain the meaning of the general remarks of the Executive and Secretary on the subject, and would show, by its provisions, what articles were deemed essential to national defence in time of war. As this was a revenue measure, it more properly belonged to the House of Representatives; and, as the committee of that house (who had been aided in their deliberations by the Secretary of the Treasury) had reported a bill, which would be acted on forthwith, he could see no necessity for calling on the Secretary for the repetition of his views to the Senate. Mr. BROWN said he did not rise to discuss the resolution. He merely wished to controvert the remark of the gentleman from Kentucky, [Mr. CLAY,] that no precedent could be found in the Journals of either House, where the head of a department had been called upon for the projet of a bill. Mr. CLAY explained. He had said that no precedent of the kind had occurred within his recollection. Mr. BROWN resumed. In the remarks made by him, a few days since, on this subject, he had taken the ground that the proposition was sustained by precedent. [Mr. B. here read from the journal of the Senate, of 1831-2, a resolution submitted by Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, and adopted, calling on the Secretary of the Treasury to prepare and furnish, at the commencement of the next session, a bill regulating the pay of the officers of the cus toms, &c.] Mr. B. remarked, in conclusion, that he believed the House of Representatives had made a like call, on a different subject, at the last session. Mr. CLAY said there might be a single case; but he believed there was no instance where a call of this kind had been made, where the subject had been brought to the consideration of the House and controverted. Mr. FOOT said it was obvious, if the bill which had been reported in the House of Representatives was the Secretary's bill, as intimated by the gentleman from Maryland, [Mr. SMITH,] the amendment proposed by the gentleman from North Carolina was unnecessary. The Secretary of the Treasury has furnished us in his report with his general views on this subject: we now want the reasons upon which these general views are founded. JANUARY 3, 4, 1833. on his adroitness in converting this road into a military road, because it removed it from the danger of the Presidential veto, but objected to the amendment. Mr. HENDRICKS also expressed his apprehension that the amendment would embarrass and weigh down the bill. After a few words from Mr. BUCKNER, Mr. SMITH moved to lay the bill on the table--yeas 18. TARIFF. The Senate then resumed the consideration of the resolution offered by Mr. POINDEXTER. The question being on the motion of Mr. BROWN to substitute the resolution offered from the Committee on Finance. Mr. HOLMES said, he gave the Senator from North Carolina [Mr. MANGUM] full credit for his motive in objecting to this call. He, last session, was opposed to a similar call, and he opposes this to preserve his consistency; although that was made for information concerning a bill, after the debate upon it was almost finished, and a contrary vote here, in this stage of the subject, would by no means impeach his consistency: still, (said Mr. H.) I admit, it is a great affair at this time, if a man can preserve an apparent consistency for so long a time as six months. The Senator from Maryland, [Mr. SMITH,] I believe, would not consider it much of a merit to preserve consistency for any time: for, if I have understood him right, he would rank it, at best, with the minor virtues. I am in favor of the resolution which asks for a projet of a tariff, but opposed to the amendment which asks for it in the form of a bill. The reasoning of the Senator from Maryland seems to me to resist the very conclusion which he seeks. He would have facts, and not opinions. Now, if I were to call for facts, a bill is the last thing I would exact. What is a bill but a projet of a law? and whoever heard that this is a statement of facts? Every law is an experiment, an opinion. Facts state things as Mr. HOLMES had met with a document calculated to they are; opinions, what they should be. Now a bill or throw some light on the subject, but which was not then law proposes something to be done; and, so far from staat his commmand. He would, therefore, move an ad- ting facts as they are, it is usually found necessary that journment; but he withdrew the motion at the instance of each bill presented here should be accompanied by a reMr. POINDEXTER, who said he would be willing to port detailing the facts as they exist, on which the bill, accommodate the gentleman from Maine, but the subject or opinion, is based. It was, to be sure, once the prac had been some time before the Senate, fully discussed, and every Senator was prepared to give his vote. He had no doubt the gentleman would be able to bring forward precedents to bear him out in his views; but he hoped the question would be taken, and the subject finally disposed of. Mr. HOLMES renewed the motion to adjourn, which was carried. The Senate then adjourned. FRIDAY, JANUARY 4. CUMBERLAND ROAD. The bill for the continuation of the Cumberland road from Vandalia, in the State of Illinois, to Jefferson City, in the State of Missouri, was then taken up in Committee of the Whole. tice to pass laws with preambles, stating the facts and reasons, but that has been long since exploded. Either the Senator or myself is hallucinated. If he wants facts, he would ask the Secretary for a bill, in which he would be very sure not to get them; and he would not call for a report, the only way in which he could possibly obtain them: that is, he would do the very thing that would defeat his professed purpose. Now, sir, I want both the facts and opinions of the Secretary, the thing as it is, and the thing as, in his opinion, it should be. And why this delicacy? Why attempt to shield a public officer from a responsibility, which the very law creating his office imposes on him? Never, before this administration, did this Senate seek for a panoply to screen a public officer from scrutiny. The act of September, 1789, establishing the Treasury Department, makes it the duty of the Secretary "to diMr. BENTON moved to amend the bill by adding after gest and propose plans for the improvement and managethe word "Missouri," the words "and thence to the ment of the revenue, and for the support of public crewestern frontier of Missouri, in the direction of the mili- dit," and further, to make report, and give informatary post on the Missouri river, above the mouth of the tion to either branch of the Legislature, in person, or in Kansas river." writing, as he may be required, respecting all matters Mr. BENTON advocated his amendment as being ren-referred to him by the Senate or House of Representadered necessary by the state of the population, and the condition of the frontier, which required the construction of a military road similar to that of Mars's Hill, in the State of Maine. Mr. SPRAGUE moved for further time to ascertain the propriety of making this location. Mr. SMITH complimented the gentleman from Missouri tives, or which shall appertain to his office." Special calls were the usual way information was obtained from this department, until the act of the 10th May, 1800, made it the duty of the Secretary to make the reports, required by the act of 1789, at the commencement of each session of Congress. Now, sir, I would inquire of the Senator from Mary |