and wished to ask the noble and learned | time. At the time of the great commer- THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, as introduce any measure in the present Ses-butter should be sold. This prejudice, THE EARL OF HARROWBY suggested that the noble Earl on the cross-benches (the Earl of Donoughmore) should try the experiment in Committee of bringing Ire. land within the operation of the Bill. After a few words from the DUKE OF ARGYLL, LORD REDESDALE, and the BISHOP OF LINCOLN, Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next. however, had gradually disappeared, and the object of this Bill was, as the same considerations applied to land and other property as applied to bills of exchange, to apply to them the same legislation. People were not deterred from raising money upon such securities at a higher rate of interest than five per cent by the present state of the law; but they had recourse to collusive practices and fraudulent proceedings in order to evade its operation. The inconveniences to which this led were very seriously felt in England, but they were felt much more seriously in Ireland, where the circumstances of many estates were such that it was impossible to borrow money upon them within the limits THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE moved which the usury laws present. The result the second reading of this Bill, and said, was, that annuities were granted, and varithat it might be in the recollection of their ous subterfuges and contrivances were reLordships that the inconveniences which sorted to; and, in the end, a much higher had been found to result from the opera- rate was paid than if the money could tion of the laws against usury had been have been had at its market value, upon a so many and so great that, notwithstand- mortgage in the ordinary way. The usury ing strong prejudices on the subject of laws, in fact, did no good whatever, but usury and usurers, it had been found they produced great inconvenience; they necessary to relax those laws from time to affected to do what all the powers of the USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read. U 2 person commi placin better guilty a ver the ever and sar ar e ¡LORDS} ** wich was applied to every/his attention in the Court of Chancery Marquess concluded by expressing an earn LORD REDESDALE would not oppose est hope that their Lordships would con- the second reading of the Bill, but thought sent to the second reading of the Bill. Mored, That the Bill be now read 2a. it ought to have been introduced earlier in LORD CAMPBELL expressed his great more time for consideration. satisfaction that the usury laws were about THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said, to be entirely swept away. From his long every matter of detail had been omitted bear testimony to the mischievous effects which did not require any long discussion. experience in courts of justice, he could from the Bill, and the principle was one which they produced. They had been Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed practically swept away in all cases except to a Committee of the whole House To where real security was given; but in the cases in which they were retained they led most disastrous, and even ruinous, to those to a good deal of litigation, and proved whom they were tect. morrow. REAL ESTATE CHARGES BILL. EARL FORTESCUE moved that this avowedly intended to pro- Bill be now read a second time, which he They had given a great deal of said had been sent up for their Lordships' employment to the Incumbered Estates approval from the other House of Parlia Court in Ireland, and he believed that ment. The Bill was intended to make a many estates in Ireland which might other-salutary alteration in the law relative to wise have been disincumbered had been charges upon real estate. Those Members brought to the hammer through the opera- of their Lordships' House who were con tion of those laws. LORD BROUGHAM said, it was almost needless to express his concurrence in what had fallen from Lord Campbell; the usury laws were not merely bad commercially, but also morally, and on grounds both commercial and moral nothing could be worse than those laws. The usury law had been denounced by Bentham, and in the same volume he also demonstrated the policy and injustice of law taxes, which it was to be hoped would soon meet with the same fate as the usury laws were about to meet with. versant with the law of real property were THE LORD CHANCELLOR also supported the Bill. The usury laws could always be defeated by a person who was willing to resort to something which bordered upon fraud. Building societies had been exempted from their operation in order to encourage the industrious classes to make small weekly or monthly investments out of their earnings. But the exemption had been taken advantage of by people who had capital to lay out, and who found that, by making use of these societies, they could obtain real security for their money without being subject to the restrictions which the usury laws imposed. The Marquess of Lansdowne and wished to ask the noble and learned | time. At the time of the gre Lord why its provisions were not to extend cial failures in the years 1836 to Ireland, where greater difficulty was was found that the greatest i found in dealing with this class of offend- was experienced from the pr ers than with any other? the result of a provision which THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, as introduced not long previously i the Bill was originally introduced into the for the renewal of the Ban other House of Parliament, Ireland was enabling the Bank of England not excepted, and he saw no reason why it a higher rate of interest than should be; but the exception had been in- by the usury laws. In cons troduced at the instance of a large body this, he (the Marquess of Lans of Gentlemen connected with the sister been induced to take charge country in the other House of Parliament. that House, by which, with res With respect to the question of his noble of exchange, and other securit and learned Friend (Lord Campbell), it description, the rate of intere was true he had promised that the atten- definitely extended. This he ha tion of the Government should be directed as a permanent Act; but consi to the subject to which his noble and learn-prehension was expressed as ed Friend had referred. He had, in fact, bable effect of such a law; and had papers before him for the purpose of passed at that time as a temp preparing a Bill; and had only not pro- sure. Nor at the end of that ceeded to do so, because he saw that his these apprehensions removed, hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Aglionby) the difficulties and inconvenien had introduced a Bill into the other House, had been anticipated were not to which he had given a careful and atten- result from it. People coul tive consideration, and some of the pro- brought to believe that money w visions of which appeared to him to apply a commodity as any ordinary distinctly to the point. He had not at all produce-that its value must be anticipated that that Bill would be dropped; like the value of any other com he had taken for granted that it would the ordinary principles of deman come up, in due course, to their Lordships' ply-and that it was as imposs House; but, without being able to promise the rate of interest at which it his noble and learned Friend that he would lent as to fix the price at which introduce any measure in the present Ses- butter should be sold. This sion, he would take care, for the future, to however, had gradually disapp rely on nobody but himself. the object of this Bill was, as considerations applied to land property as applied to bills of to apply to them the same People were not deterred fro money upon such securities at rate of interest than five per co present state of the law; but recourse to collusive practices a THE EARL OF HARROWBY suggested that the noble Earl on the cross-benches (the Earl of Donoughmore) should try the experiment in Committee of bringing Ire. land within the operation of the Bill. After a few words from the DUKE OF AKGYLL, LORD REDESDALE, and the BISHOP OF LINCOLN, Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed | lent proceedings in order to eva to a Committee of the whole House on ration. The inconveniences to Friday next. USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL. led were very seriously felt in but they were felt much more s Ireland, where the circumstance Order of the Day for the Second Read-estates were such that it was im ing read. THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE moved the second reading of this Bill, and said, that it might be in the recollection of their Lordships that the inconveniences which had been found to result from the operation of the laws against usury had been so many and so great that, notwithstanding strong prejudices on the subject of usury and usurers, it had been found necessary to relax those laws from time to borrow money upon them within which the usury laws present. was, that annuities were granted ous subterfuges and contrivance sorted to; and, in the end, a m rate was paid than if the mo have been had at its market val mortgage in the ordinary way. laws, in fact, did no good wha they produced great inconvenie affected to do what all the pow This fact had been brought prominently LORD REDESDALE would not oppose do-to apply a diffeescription of commovas applied to every fered with the prinemand. Having reong the distinguishted their policy, and as having dealt the nst them, the noble y expressing an earnordships would conding of the Bill. ill be now read 2a. expressed his great sury laws were about way. From his long of justice, he could e mischievous effects They had been y in all cases except as given; but in the ere retained they led tigation, and proved even ruinous, to those edly intended to proen a great deal of Incumbered Estates nd he believed that d which might otherncumbered had been er through the opera THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said, every matter of detail had been omitted from the Bill, and the principle was one which did not require any long discussion. Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the whole House Tomorrow. REAL ESTATE CHARGES BILL. NCELLOR also suphe usury laws could by a person who was something which boruilding societies had their operation in e industrious classes y or monthly investrnings. But the exken advantage of by al to lay out, and who g use of these sociein real security for being subject to the usury laws imposed. f Lansdowne 585 Charges now relate to their L dedeted from the LARD REDESDAL Amendment move a W day three months.' now relate to their Lordships a case of hardship under a will. A gentleman died, leaving an only daughter, to whom he bequeathed all his personal property, leaving to a distant relative an estate charged with a heavy mortgage. The father of course expected that his daughter would receive the entire of his personalty without deduction, but the devisee of the landed property claimed to have the debt upon the estate paid out of the personalty, and several thousand pounds were thus deducted from the inheritance which the father believed he had left his child. These were two cases of very recent occurrence. The object of the Bill was in no wise to interfere with wills or with settlements, but simply to give effect to the intentions of testators, and he hoped their Lordships would sanction it. The first clause of the Bill provided that where no provision was made by will to the contrary, all mortgages should be defrayed out of the property mortgaged, and the second clause provided that where a party directed his property to be sold for the payment of incumbrances, it should be treated as personalty instead of realty. Moved, That the Bill be now read a Second time. LORD REDESDALE said, he felt bound to oppose the second reading of the Bill, which he regarded as a step towards altering the law of succession of landed property in this country. He was not convinced by any of the arguments of the noble Earl that such a Bill was necessary. The case quoted was one in which the will had failed to carry out the wishes of the testator, but this occurred on many occasions, and was not a sufficient reason for a change in the law. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. Amendment moved, to leave out the word "now," and add the words "this day three months." LORD CAMPBELL was sorry to hear that there was any opposition to the Bill, having believed that a measure which was so much in accordance with the dictates of justice and equity would have passed unanimously. The Bill did not interfere with the law of primogeniture, to which he was as much attached as any of their Lordships; and when in the House of Commons he had opposed a Bill providing that, in case of intestacy, the land should be equally divided amongst the children. It did not interfere with real estate in the least degree, but merely enacted sonal estate should be divided a estate, among the widow and instead of, as in many cases whole of it in fact going to the merely corrected a doubtful deci courts of equity. In Scotland no such absurd law as that e England, and yet there the la mogeniture were in full force a He trusted the Bill would be rea time. EARL GRANVILLE, on be noble and learned Lord (Lord nards), who was unavoidably ab gested the propriety of reading second time pro formá, and del ther discussion upon it until it Committee. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL sup second reading of the Bill, and astonishing that so unjust a reg that with which it proposed to ever have existed in England. THE LORD CHANCELLOR House ought to know exactly law was before they came to a the matter; for he thought that were well understood, there cou two opinions as to the justice of sure. Suppose a man inherited from his father that was charg mortgage of 10,000l., that he sessed 10,000l. in the funds, intestate, leaving an eldest son a other children; the law in that the estate to the eldest son, it cum onere—that is, subjec mortgage-and the personalty amongst all the children; but su man had inherited the estate any charge, or had purchased it wards mortgaged it, investing gage money in the 3 per cents, died intestate, any person would the same rule ought to apply; bu steps in and says the mortgage and must be paid out of the pers perty, to the injury of the your dren. This evil is proposed to be by the first clause. He hoped th be no opposition to the Bill. He consent to anything that would institution of primogeniture; but to him that the refusal to pas measure as that before the Hous surest means of bringing that i into discredit. If they agreed t clause they would necessarily ag second, which carried out the sa |