ed. No good would be into the papers a string er could have been paid, fabulous and dishonest. stood was, he thought, claims; but if the Committee thought this ought to be done, he had no objection to the proposition. MR. VERNON SMITH said, the object of the clause was to invoke public opinion to shame persons from making improper claims. He had no doubt the clause would be beneficial, and he trusted that hon. Gentlemen would not be so carried away by ridicule as to throw out one of the most valuable portions of the Bill. LORD ROBERT GROSVENOR said, he did not see the necessity of the Amendment, as any elector could get a copy of the claims on application. He rose, however, to call attention to the fact that it was not stated in the clause who was to pay the expenses of publication. As the object was to reduce election expenses, he thought it would be better to pay them out of the borough or county rates, and he should move the insertion of words to that effect. LSH said, the hon. and or East Suffolk and the Manchester were entirely meaning of the clause. h) thought there was a e attained by the words , the stoppage of those so frequently made for timidation at elections. CK supported the Amend-eat good, however, might publication, a great evil also. The principal obwould, in his opinion, be ng the accounts accessible after the election; after be closed, and with them exatious litigation. He move the substitution of ree months" instead of LE said, he thought the ld create the evil it was The candidate would putation of not paying the t. MR. VINCENT SCULLY thought it would be advisable to have all claims published. He objected to compulsory publication in newspapers, as the charge for such advertisements would be excessive. The publication by printed placards, which would be inexpensive, might answer all the purpose. ARD said, he could not proposition of the right He should, therefore, 66 66 MR. HILDYARD said, he had reconm in the mind of the pub-sidered the Amendment, and having had pinion that the publication the assistance of the hon. and learned lowed would be sufficient, Member for East Suffolk, would state the ication of those which had exact words he wished to have inserted in the clause. He proposed that the words, all claims and objected to," be inserted, or by whom and at the end the words, the same have been claimed respectively." LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, it certainly was an omission that no provision was made for paying the expense of pubHe objected to the lishing the accounts. proposition of paying the expenses out of the rates, as such payment involved an important principle. If the payment was to be so made, it ought to form the subject of a separate clause, or even a separate Bill, and not be introduced at the end of a He considered that the matter clause. might be made clear, as far as the payment by the candidate was concerned, by few additional words. = Amendment. EY said, he thought the were conclusive against f the clause in the Bill. publicity was attained by ; and nothing but scandal the clause in question. NEY GENERAL said, it at the clause was open to With reference to the scanng disallowed claims, he he Committee that by the y elector might go to the and obtain a copy of all owed and disallowed, and f he chose to take on himnsibility. He thought the he accounts by the election e of the most important Bill. He did not, however, ty of publishing disallowed ht MR. DEEDES said, he was at a loss to understand the principle of putting the expenses on the borough or county rate. MR. BRIGHT said, he believed from his experience of newspaper proprietors there would be great competition to get hold of these accounts and to publish them. They would prove an int tent to have no provision Ted Members. Png that the Me They would prove an interesting item of doubt every county Member knew s MR. HEADLAM said, he agreed in MR. HILDYARD said, it was quite clear the Committee would be guilty of a great constitutional mistake if it cast any burden on the particular body or district which returned Members. The constitutional law was that they were Members, not for the benefit of this or that place, but for the benefit of the nation. If the expense was to be borne by the public, it must come out of the public purse, for whose benefit they sat there, if they sat there for the benefit of anybody, which people out of doors doubted. To throw any expense on a particular place would be recognising that the Member for that place was bound to look exclusively to their interests. Amendment withdrawn. On the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill, Motion made, and Question put, the Clause, as amended, stand part o Bill." The Committee divided::-Ayes Noes 94: Majority 84. Clause agreed to, as was also Claus Clause 31 (All Moneys and Docu to be handed over to the Election Of MR. BENTINCK said, he must plain that no precaution seemed taken as to the character of the p who was to be appointed as election o There was no restriction whatever. person in the country, let his charact what it might, was eligible for ap ment. Now, supposing a person ho this situation absconded with wha money or documents happened to be possession, what means were there covering such property? SIR FITZROY KELLY said, th the election officer committed suc offence, he would incur the ordinary p ties of misdemeanor, and might be ceeded against. He would remind Committee, however, that, as origi framed, this measure proposed to ap a barrister to this office. If the Cou tee had agreed to that proposal, would have had in the character and tion of such a person an ample sec LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he agreed that he was a fit and proper person with his hon. and learned Friend the At-intrusted with the duties of the office. torney General that this was one of the he found that as soon as a proposa most valuable clauses in the Bill, and he made that the appointment should be hoped that the Committee would adopt it. ferred on a barrister, it was met by al It was possible that there might be a com- universal disapprobation. petition amongst newspapers for the publication of the accounts; but would any one say that there should not be an authorised publication, or they might not have the accounts correctly given. If the publication was left entirely to the newspapers, one party would publish one statement, and the other party another. For those considerations, he believed the clause would be of great benefit, and he should support it. MR. HILDYARD said, the Committee must understand that the printing of these accounts would be attended with very heavy expense. He knew from his experience in revising the list of voters of a division of Yorkshire, in which there were thirty-nine polling places, and he had no VOL. CXXXV. [THIRD SERIES.] MR. BENTINCK must say that h not see much use in indicting a man had gone to America, or who was forthcoming. But another difficulty sented itself to him. A man appoint election officer, and to whom docum and money were handed over, might it might be very necessary that those ments, and that that money should the possession of the candidate in a time, and yet it might be competen the heirs of this man to retain possess MR. J. BALL suggested there shou a power of appeal against the nomin of an improper person. MR. HILDYARD said, he thought security should be given that the po who was appointed should not be a po N He thought that they should have some more precise definition of the word "agent" than was contained in the clause. He did not see how this clause could be carried out in the case-not a very unfrequent one-in which a person was nominated without his knowledge. He would then be a "candidate," and as such would, by this clause, be compelled to inform the election officer of the name of his agent, although in fact he had none, and knew nothing about the matter. e of absconding, and there- | declare. 66 MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he would suggest that the words "if any should be inserted after the word " 'agent." He did this in order to meet the case of a candidate not having an agent. OY KELLY said, it was it the words "by the authoection officer." As to the e appointed, the candidate heir names to the election ime the appointment took did not see that it would define them more particu MR. GRANVILLE VERNON said, that some provision should be made in this clause to meet the case, in which, in the absence of a candidate, or of his being put up without his consent, some party might be made responsible; he would suggest that such a responsibility be borne by the proposer and seconder of a candidate? THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he thought that some provision should be inserted to enable some one, in the absence of a candidate, to do what he might and ought to do if present, otherwise the current expenses could not be paid. UCHERE said, he was difficulties stated by the e Member for Totness had If they asked a candidate gents in writing, the candiy entitled to know exactly nt by the term. What was of the word "agent?" Did ons who might be employed poses, or merely those who with the payment of SIR FITZROY KELLY said, he also OY KELLY said, the word mployed in the Bill, meant he payment of money, and ho might be employed for ses. It meant one who and direct the expenses of He LORD ADOLPHUS VANE TEMPEST said, he wished to move the following Amendment Amendment proposed, in page 12, line "and no person being a candidate at any Election, ETT DENISON said, he over any Election which shall be shown to have THE ATTORNEY G which would be to mak was responsible in a Werbery would agency to Kas sufficient tou STINCK said, Bill now befor Ja, he (Mr. Bent at sarmalous and abs Friend. If the Med to adopt the Friend, he hoped MR. WALPOLE said, he doubt ther the hon. and learned Attorney ral was right in opposing this clause proviso proposed by his noble Frien A. Vane Tempest) did not say t party guilty of the illegal act shall called upon to answer for his offer that before the candidate shall be m sponsible for this act of the alleged it must be proved that he had gi thority for the act, or that he ha tioned it after it had been done. I Walpole) did not think that the p Amendment was the introduction new law, but the revival of an which had been permitted to fall state of ambiguity. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he clause would be proposed to deal w must oppose the Amendment, the effect of difficulty. which would be to make the law less instead of more stringent than it was at present, and to introduce an innovation into the law and practice of Parliament. It had hitherto been held that a candidate was responsible in a Parliamentary, although not in a criminal, sense, for the acts of his agent; and if that law were altered a wide door would be opened to bribery and corruption. He was convinced that the law with regard to questions of fact as to the existence of agency was at present well administered by Parliamentary Committees. A candidate who wished to commit bribery would never name an agent for that purpose, and the great check upon bribery now was, that the commission of that offence by a person between whom and the candidate a Committee believed the relation of agency to have been established, was sufficient to unseat a Member. If direct authority from the Member was required to be shown before he could be unseated for the acts of an agent, there was scarcely an instance in which the law might not be evaded. He did not believe that, under the present law, many hon. Members unduly lost their seats; on the contrary, where the hon. Member lost, a great many retained their seats unduly, as, notwithstanding bribery might be clearly made out, it was always very difficult to prove agency. MR. HEADLAM said, he thoug the Amendment would open the d much fraud; and candidates woul rectly obtain all the advantages of and corruption, without incurring sponsibility. MR. AGLIONBY also oppos clause, but expressed a wish tha words could be introduced into the Parliament which would more clea fine the meaning of agency. SIR FITZROY KELLY said, he support the Amendment, on the that the seat of a successful candidat not to be avoided by the act of a who might be a complete stranger or, perhaps, even an enemy in disg LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, b oppose the Amendment, since ther be great difficulty in proving briber were to depend upon the admissi direct orders to bribe had been given agent or attorney by the candidate. Question put, That those wo there added." The Committee divided:-Aye Clause, as amended, agreed to. MR. BENTINCK said, before the House passed the Bill now before it, he thought that they were bound to attempt to apply some remedy to the very anomalous state of the law upon this subject of agency. At present the case of agency rested solely upon the caprice of Election Committees. He did not wish to make any invidious remarks, but he could quote cases in which the most unaccountable decisions had been come to in respect to agency. He knew, for instance, of one case, where a gentleman was unseated solely upon the ground that a man was seen in the same room with him who had been proved to have paid money as a bribe. There was not a tittle of other evidence against the candidate. Now that, he (Mr. Bentinck) submitted, Order for Third Reading read. was an anomalous and absurd state for the Motion made and Question pr question to be left in. Under such circum-" That the Bill be now read the third stances, he thought that the Committee COLONEL DUNNE said, he had were bound, as a matter of justice, to meet notice to move the insertion of a the difficulty suggested by the provision of limiting the Bill to two years ins his noble Friend. If the Committee were five, but if he received an assuran not prepared to adopt the Amendment of the Government that a Committee his noble Friend, he hoped that some other be appointed to inquire into the gress. POOR LAW COMMISSION CONTIN (IRELAND) BILL. ld not press his Motion. | posed to be left out stand part of the said, that so far from ge amount expended, he n those unions where the in a year was under ich there was the largest pense, the whole charge ery kind, including clerks not exceed five farthings. The House divided:-Ayes 82; Noes The House adjourned at a quarter after said, this was a question and he appealed to the was fair to deprive them - of discussion; he should ment of the debate. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, July 18, 1854. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Poor Law Com- OUNG said, he thought ecessity for that course, been amply discussed in e attention of the Governrected to this subject durnd after the recess they 3a Ecclesiastical Courts; Commons Inclosure ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. LORD BROUGHAM, in moving the third o assent to the appoint-reading of this Bill, said, that its object ittee to inquire into the was to extend to the Ecclesiastical Courts or Law Commission. The provisions of the greatest importance, and Member (Colonel Dunne) placing them in a position, with respect to , to desire an investiga- the reception of evidence, similar to that le operation of the Poor of other courts. By an Act passed in the I but such an inquiry, year 1840, the Court of Admiralty obtainly taken place to a con- ed power to examine witnesses and take the Government were evidence vivá voce. Previous to that time pared to grant. He (Sir the practice in that Court, like that of the ed that the vast majority Court of Chancery, was to take evidence by reland were satisfied with written deposition, involving, to the frusple and operation of the tration of justice, this absurdity, that one person saw the witness, heard him give his evidence, and observed his demeanour under examination, while another person had to decide on the value of his testimony, and to give judgment upon it. The procedure of the Ecclesiastical Courts and Doctors' Commons was superior in one material respect to that of the Court of Chancery, for, whereas, in the Court of Chancery, each question was put and answered in succession, one after the other, the person who framed the second question being in perfect ignorance of what the answer might be to the first-a most absurd and clumsy course of proceeding-in the Admiralty Court, on the other hand, the examiner had the power of taking the allegation and plea, and, by making that a kind of guide to him in the conduct of the examination of the witness, could put such questions as were likely to elicit satisfactory answers on points contained in the allegation. This latter practice, although better than that which used to be followed in the Court of TNEY said, that during ven years numerous petipresented to Parliament, he working of the Irish especially of what were shment charges. and Question put, w adjourned.' ided: -Ayes 36; Noes "That proposed :-Whereupon d Question put, "That adjourn." vided:-Ayes 21; Noes put, and agreed to. -oposed, in page 2, line ne |