amount of additional reexpected to gain? At e subject to a low stamp nces in fee to a high -stood that one object of es was to equalise these ght, however, that this lowering the duties on rather than by augment; for the result of the was that embodied in the to this Resolution, would would be imposed upon y property which was the of taxation-the small n building leases. per cent in the other. There were two kinds of conveyance. One was for money paid down, the other was for a perpetual annuity. These last were very common in the neighbourhood to which the hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. Hadfield) belonged. They were taken for the purposes of building; a perpetual rent-charge was reserved; but they were as much conveyances in fee as if the whole purchase money had been paid at once. The hon. Gentleman complained that, although he could take a lease for 999 years, and be taxed only at the rate chargeable upon other leases, he could not take a conveyance in fee to be paid for by an annuity at the same rate. His object, D said, he objected par- therefore, was to reduce the stamp upon posed schedules of duties conveyances where the consideration was ould injuriously affect a an annuity, but not where it was a sum of the manufacturing dis- money. The Government made this prors of building societies. posal entirely with a view of meeting an the present Bill were apparent discrepancy in that part of the blundering with those country to which the hon. Gentleman had adment Act of last year. referred, but without having any wish or duty on a lease of 100 disposition to press it on the Committee. per cent, and on a lease It appeared to them, however, that there s to be 6 per cent, al- was a great difference between a mere ocof each was practically cupation lease, which was granted for the ear the Stamp Duties purpose of business, and a lease for 999 red that it was neces-years, which to all intents and purposes Bill to amend it as to might be called a conveyance in fee, since nveyances, and another the reversion was worth nothing. They s to progressive duties. proposed, therefore, that leases for any pethe Committee whether riod not exceeding thirty-five years should the Chancellor of the pay the same stamp duty as at present; andoned the excessive where the term was more than thirty-five, ss of conveyances, to and less than 100 years, it was proposed es? It was unjust to to charge 3s. per cent, and where it exavily in order to relieve ceeded 100 years 6s. per cent. The hon. He should propose an Gentleman wished to adopt the lower part formity with the deter- of this scale, and to reject the higher; and a former occasion, and having done that, he wished to put conCommittee against the veyances in fee for chief rents upon the same term as leases. The tenure, however, was the same as if the money were paid down; there was the same freehold, the same right of property, and what would the purchaser for money say, if the purchaser for an annuity were placed, in relation to taxation, upon so very different a footing? He believed that the effect of the change upon the revenue would be very slight, but there was more likely to be a trifling loss than any gain. posed, to leave out the à shall not exceed 100 N said, at present the plicable to every lease d it was granted, so three years paid the lease for 999 years. lease was equivalent he rent. Upon a conivalent toper cent , taking the value at ent, its relation to the e would be as 25 to 1. The Committee divided:-Ayes 120; cent in one case against Noes 36: Majority 84. ghby Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Resolution." Original Question put, Remaining Resolutions House resumed. TURNPIKE ACTS CON The clauses having bed S WILLIAM JOLI hed to propose a clause gente. Under the At the Commercial Ro one liable to be rated to t that aby having been ret den of the Bene, & spplication ha the Secretary of State fo partment on the subject, pinion that t be desin wth by private I Wemceived tha dy the grievan bring the road un dal Turnpike A he waked the Committ sin of the present cl WRIGHTSON sai et the introduction of believed would have Original Question put, and agreed to. TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE, &c. BILL. noble Lord, as the power of the Order for Committee read; House in nominations should have access to Committee. The clauses having been agreed to, SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE said, he wished to propose a clause of which he had given notice. Under the provision of the Act the Commercial Road was the only one liable to be rated to the poor rate, and that liability having been confirmed by a recent decision of the Court of Queen's Bench, an application had been made to the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the subject, who, however, expressed an opinion that the matter should be dealt with by private Bill; but he (Sir W. Jolliffe) conceived that the only proper way to remedy the grievance complained of was to bring the road under the operation of the General Turnpike Act, and therefore he now asked the Committee to agree to the insertion of the present clause. MR. WRIGHTSON said, he should support the introduction of the clause, which he believed would have a very useful tendency. MR. FITZROY said, he must oppose the clause on the grounds that the Committee ought not to decide upon a question of this kind upon a mere ex parte statement, and without hearing the other side. SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE consented to withdraw the clause for the present, but would propose it again on the third reading. House resumed; Bill reported. YOUTHFUL OFFENDERS BILL. venile offenders during the week, su such regulations as the authorities make, and should be at liberty to divine service on Sundays. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, oppose the clause as unnecessary, one which, if insisted upon, would cɛ Bill to be lost. It was very simil clause which was recently expunge a Bill in the other House. Clause brought up, and read 1o. Motion made, and Question put, the said Clause be now read a second The House divided:-Ayes 23 69: Majority 46. Bill passed. The House adjourned at Two o'c HOUSE OF LORDS Friday, July 14, 1854. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1" Merchan 2 Commons Inclosure (No. 2). 3 THE GENERAL BOARD OF HEA THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY that in moving for Returns relating Board of Health, he would take the tunity of replying to certain attac cently made on the conduct of that It would be irregular on his part t more particularly to these attacks for the purpose of making his defer must assume that charges had been LORD DUDLEY STUART said, he against the Board somewhere-no wished to ask whether the Bill was intend-where-and by a certain eminent ed to apply to the whole of the kingdom, including the county of Middlesex, as he was anxious that the inhabitants of that county should have the advantage which would be conferred by the measure? He also desired to know whether there would be any objection to insert words empowering the Home Secretary, if he thought fit, to remove juvenile offenders from one reformatory school to another? VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, in reply to the last question, said, that it would be no use to insert the words suggested by the man whom he needed not to name. nature of those charges he though ciently showed that the party who them must be extremely ignorant tremely malignant; but when a board was charged, however undese with a complete perversion of its and functions, he thought it was de that it should be defended; more cially when it was a Board of su portance, and engaged in such m that no one could deny, if it were w ministered, that it must be of the General {LORDS} Board of Health. 236 the material and physi- | carried on to a great extent, from which the following was an extract— "So far as this local board is concerned, I am prepared to give the strongest contradiction to such outcry. The whole of the business of this board with the general Board has, until lately, been carried on by me, and I can fairly state that been any attempt at unnecessary interference. The general Board have acted in a fair spirit towards me, and have cordially co-operated in all matters having the sanitary improvement of the that in the great scheme of sewerage which I had borough for its object. I am also glad to say the honour of preparing for this borough, not one single objection has been taken to it by the general Board. On the contrary, it has had their ready assent, and I am progressing with the works in the most satisfactory manner.' So much for that statement, but next came one rather more important, because it involved a serious charge against the Board, as being determined to thwart the views of the President of the Board, and, in fact, to act in defiance of the Govern in all our transactions with them there has not ment. ; almost add, the moral people. In the speech ferring, there was a dist the Board of Health uct, completely checked nitary measures in this it had, by its despotic ehaviour, disgusted the id had thus been the progress of those great sures so largely required ondition of our people. t was this" Sanitary troduced, not from the wns, but forced on them terference of the Board , to that statement he ttest possible contradic1 show by facts how enwas. The Act had been icos; in 168 of these it petition from the rateto law; in fourteen it was resentations from town es, based on the excess of ough the Act gave the oceed by virtue of its own 3 where the mortality exee in 1,000, yet in no one t been done, except upon n of the town council, or embled together. Theree case had the Act been pon the desire of the goof the inhabitants of the -mbled together in some ceting. Since, however, appeared, the Board had ters, expressive of strong hem and of the readiness refute them from their For instance, a letter ed from Lancaster, from ng was an extract— But to that statement, also, he gave as flat a contradiction as he had given to the other, and in like manner he would show that it was totally unfounded. These were the words of the charge, and here he must premise that it was made by one who had once held the office of Chief Commissioner of the Board of Works "When he was himself at the Board of Works, and after communicating with the other Members of the Government, he had made a communication to the Board of Health as to the course he "se In thought they should adopt; he was told that his proposition was not seconded, that the members of the Board knew nothing of what the Government might wish; they only knew that the proWas that the way in posal was not seconded. which public business was to be conducted?" Certainly not, he answered; it never was so conducted. He most distinctly and most emphatically denied on his word of honour, that the term "second" or conder," had ever been used on that day or in that discussion, or, indeed, at any one time to his belief, whenever that noble Lord (Lord Seymour) was present. this he could be borne out by his colleagues, and by the secretary of the Board, who was present. It did so happen, however, that upon the minutes in which the events of that day were recorded, the word "second" did appear, but they were drawn up by the secretary, who had assured him that he had made use of the term, because he was giving a description of what had occurred, but that it had never been made use of in the discussion, either in form or substance. He firmly believed that the used with the rabid attack -d of Health by Lord Seymour There is a great prejudice, from ignorance; but sanitary important, and the Board of oo much to promote it, to be holesale accusations. SpeakI know we have much reason e ready advice and assistance eived from the Board on all note similar accounts from ottenham, and many other had been received from the local board of health e public works were being Shaftesbury Bed him tha enou Je ale attend to the 265 ever to do anyt ads to elapse bef and then his stay take exceptio he ground, simply Bee, and of tha afterwards, wher the noble Lord attended again, and forty-three more before he attended for the seventh and last time. After before the noble Lord retired from there were 118 boards which he attended. And yet the noble Lor stated that his reason for absenting self from the Board was the opposit thought never occurred to the noble Lord | tion was referred to the Treasury until he had read that word in the recorded decided against it, and confirmed t minutes. The noble Lord had, in fact, sons on which it had been opposed revived a charge which he had made once begged their Lordships would no before against the Board, that it was quite fact, that he had opposed the noble impossible for him to continue to attend proposition, because, throughout at the Board because he was invariably famous speech to which he was ref thwarted and opposed by the other mem- it was represented that his two colle bers of it. The noble Lord had assumed Dr. Southwood Smith and Mr. Cha the other night, that his reason for not were the only parties present and th attending the meetings of the Board was, parties who raised any opposition; that he was perpetually thwarted there believed the only opposition that ev and could not carry his own views into raised was on this day, the noble effect; but he could assert most solemnly fifth attendance, and then the ob that, when he waited on the noble Lord, was raised by him (the Earl of Si immediately on his assuming office, the bury). At no one time, he be noble Lord told him that he should never either before or after, was there a be able to attend to the meetings of the jection raised, either by him, or by Board, because he should have so very of his two colleagues. After his much to do in his own office, and the noble attendance, on which this event Lord was also good enough to add a com- place, there was another interva pliment, to the effect that he had no fear believed, of ninety-seven boards, of anything going wrong, having sufficient confidence in his (the Earl of Shaftesbury's) discretion. Shortly after that, too, the noble Lord told him, that his rule of business was never to do anything that he was not absolutely compelled to do. Now, when the noble Lord had thus forewarned him of his intention not to attend the Board, it certainly was not unnaturally a great sur-met with, after he had previously prise to him to learn, that the noble Lord had said that he had stayed away, because of the opposition which he anticipated; but, on the first day that the noble Lord attended the Board, on the sixth day after he took office, no opposition was offered to him, for he merely took his seat; but, to show how completely he carried his predetermination of non-attendance into effect, "As it is not in my power to attend the between his first appearance and his second, ings of the Board of Health without the he allowed sixty-eight boards to elapse; of my duties here, I have to request that y and after his second appearance, he allowed furnish me with copies of all minutes," &c. five boards to elapse before he attended There was another charge also br again, and then his stay was very short. forward by the noble Lord, in whi Between his third and fourth appearance insinuated that there had been tamp there were ten boards; but between his with the Board of Health; that ther fourth and his fifth appearance he allowed an understanding existing between no less than ninety-four boards to elapse, Board of Health and the local boards making, in 183 boards, five attendances. that the inspector first of all broug On this fifth attendance the noble Lord the Board, and then the Board broug certainly did make a proposition, to which the inspector. To this charge he he (the Earl of Shaftesbury) ventured give the most positive and emphatic humbly to take exception, because the tradiction, and at the same time h proposal was utterly impracticable, and bound to say that, if the noble Lord even hazardous. He told the noble Lord believed it was true, the subject oug so, and the matter was discussed, and it have been inquired into long since, an fell to the ground, simply because it was charge ought to be brought forward impracticable, and of that the best proof by those who had the means of p was, that afterwards, when the whole ques-ring a public accusation. It was, in to him (the Earl of Shaftesbury) a others besides, whom he could prod testimony, that he did not intend present because he was so occupied the business of his own office, and after he had used language to the effect in a letter to him in January, in which he said— edertraordinary amou Imus d ́s (the Bishop of 1. the suggestions o nd Dr. Southwood Smith red out, we should not n tal, at least to the same tum of the cholera. At Cat's knowledge ther beerolent interest for trerent his sanctio Se which would inflict 1 paret df his fellow-creatu had for ma the Bishop a ter erent man. Sed very m tarting the sick opportunitie quired with the subje ear the Perer Hospital. ege which he ha provements, a qualified that & the Board of Ted Smith. No fiyel by the prin bee, or more likel g to the carrying rich the Bo sted. That Bo a position of the 22n tte want of pro[] the part of those render it every as from his personal be he felt it his du mony to the r er and Dr. Sout sted the Governm e gentlemen in the a charge of corruption | materially affect the character of those who of Health, and the noble appointed the gentlemen who constituted by every obligation of that Board. He considered, however, that gentleman, to substan- if the Board of Health had not succeeded d. After having made in carrying into effect the great sanitary e noble Lord concluded reforms which were anticipated by the should be remembered public, their not having done so was no rd was speaking of his fault of the Board of Health, but of the that the only way Government, who had neglected to assist nbers of the Board of them in the way that ought to have been was to stop their salary. done. If the Board of Health had not Lordships, or any body been thwarted by the Government, or raether this was becoming ther by those officers of the Government cly make use of in refe- whose duty it was to watch over the Board ict of persons who were of Health, and, if necessary, to control, but therefore, could not de- more generally to encourage their proceedor answer the charges ings, the public would by this time have it against them in the had good water, and that at a price so that they were made? trivial as scarcely to be worth consideraad, no doubt, to the ad- tion. He was perfectly persuaded, also, untry, himself received a that if the proposals of the Board of Health I he not have deeply re- had not been opposed by those in power, tion, if any one had said the burial question would by this time have was his sole object, and been settled, with infinite advantage to the moval of it the only way population of the metropolis, and without I be urged to perform the injustice to the interests of individuals: imposed upon him? He but, no-the Board of Health were here , in reference to the two impeded more than even on the former ere the subject of attack, question, and a combination of the sharehe had had the pleasure holders in different cemetary companies ears, and to participate in had sufficient influence with those in authos, that he had never met rity to prevent the Board of Health effectnt, zealous, and efficient ing the improvements which they contemand men who were more plated and desired. As to the members all the good they were who composed the Board of Health-Lord id know what the feelings Shaftesbury, Mr. Edwin Chadwick, and might be on the subject, Dr. Southwood Smith, and who had been know that if his two personally attacked-their names had been adwick and Dr. Smith, connected with every project for the ima thing against the noble provement of the condition of the poorer else, they would, in their classes of this country. It was, of course, nost deeply have regretted unnecessary to say one word in favour of The noble Earl con- the noble Earl, whose many acts of charity for the physical and moral improvement of aid before this House, Return the labouring classes were so well known; Description of Petitions from but, on the other two gentlemen, perhaps ealth against the Continuance he might be allowed to make a few remarks. rd of Health And also, Re- Mr. Chadwick he had known for thirty and Description of Petitions of the Public Health Act, and years, and he could say that a more effior Memorials or other Forms cient, active, diligent, and honest servant the Extension of the Jurisdic. of the public never existed. Board, or for the Exercise of the Protection of the Public This was sufficiently proved by his conduct as se- OF LONDON said, that ho had just spoken had erved that the question at onduct of the Board of efore, to a certain extent, ch had been made must Shaftesbury 0 1 they occupied, nor had hose names notice of their L the discussion to his part. He had! sociated with his beset them in t and no imputation the estimate whi |