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revenue of England and Scotland only, in | gone at present, without at all attempting attempting to arrive at any complete and what it could never be safe to attemptaccurate conclusion upon this subject, you without at all attempting to prophecy for would have found an addition to the appa- the future. All that I venture to state is rent revenue of the last quarter, which that none of the appearances presented to would have disposed of all the remaining us on the 8th of May have as yet been portion of the deficiency of 570,000l. falsified, or in any way rendered less enwhich it exhibited; so that, in point of couraging on the 8th of August. The fact, although we are comparing the reve- total addition to the expenditure between nue of a period of war with the revenue of a the 5th of April and the 29th of July in period of peace, although we are comparing the present year, which is about sixteen the revenue of a period of dear money with weeks, as compared with the expenditure the revenue of a period of cheap money, of the corresponding period of 1853, is and although we are comparing the reve- about 3,500,000l., and these figures give nue of a period of dear bread with the re- me reason to suppose, as far as they go, venue of a period of cheap bread, yet the that there will not be at any rate that revenue of the second quarter of the pre-extravagant departure from our Estimates sent year, derived from permanent sources, and fairly estimated, equals that of the corresponding quarter of last year, notwithstanding the great reductions of taxation that had in the interval come into operation. Now, I say that that is a satisfactory statement. With regard to the state of the demands on us, I do not think it would be desirable, and I do not suppose the hon. Baronet could expect, that I should repeat the figures which I laid in great detail before the House at an earlier period of the Session. I must, however, correct the hon. Baronet when he says that I undertook at the commencement of the Session to lay down the principle that the cost of the war during the year should be paid out of the taxes of the year. On the contrary, I am sure the hon. Baronet, and, indeed, his speech contained the avowal, must be aware that I always pointed out to the House that it would be impossible to raise the new taxes within the year, and that, therefore, a temporary advance, which should, of course, be borrowed in some form or another, would be absolutely necessary for the present year. What has the House done? It has provided us with taxing powers which, when added to the available surplus of revenue, will realise a sum equal to the expenses of the war as they have been estimated for the year; and the money that is to accrue from the taxes laid on in the present year, when it shall have been received, will, I have no doubt, be fully equal to the amount of those expenses, and will, if by any good fortune we should, on the 5th April next, have a peace, be sufficient to enable us completely to liquidate those expenses up to that date withbut adding a shilling to the national debt. I make that statement as far as we have

which undoubtedly in former wars the House had the most serious reason to lament. But, at the same time, I cannot speak with confidence on the matter, for confidence in such a case would undoubtedly be presumption. The provision made by the House, not only with respect to the taxes, of which a large portion cannot be available before the 5th of April next, but also with respect to the money for the purpose of meeting the immediate necessities of the war, has been liberal and ample; and I think it quite possible that I may not even be compelled to use it to the full amount. Speaking from memory, and in round numbers, I may state the case thus. 4,000,000l. of Exchequer bonds have been negotiated, and 3,000,0001. of that sum have been received. There is an unexhausted power of issuing Exchequer bills still remaining to the amount of about 600,000l. or 700,000l., and the amount of Exchequer bills in the market is lower than usual, being, I believe, only about 16,500,000l. As respects the balances of the public money, I consider they are in a satisfactory state, and I have not the least expectation of my being under the necessity of calling on the Bank for the use of any funds which are properly its own. The balances in the Exchequer, which were only about 2,000,000l. on the 5th of April, rose on the 5th of July to 3,610,000l.; and on the 10th of October I expect that they will amount to about 4,500,000l. I do not, therefore, think it will be necessary for us to take any special measures, as far as I can judge, with a view to increase the balances in the Exchequer. And now, without troubling the House further with details of finance which have been already laid before them with the utmost completeness, I think I must

be content with furnishing the information | credited to their account. That is the I have just afforded upon that subject. property of the savings banks and noThe hon. Baronet has alluded in the course thing else whatever. It has no connecof his observations to the claim of the tion except in the imagination of some East India Company for a sum of about hon. Gentlemen in this House, and else800,000. That claim was a legacy be- where perhaps, with the position of the queathed to us by a former Government. savings banks. But at the same time that It was long a subject of controversy, and stock is the fund placed by Parliament in it was highly desirable, and propriety re- the hands of the National Debt Commisquired that it should be brought to some sioners, in order to enable them to meet conclusion; and, indeed, the East India the calls upon them. It is not in the Company were as anxious for its settle- power of the National Debt Commissioners ment as we were ourselves. It is perfectly to control those calls; for they are calls true that the East India Company made which must be met absolutely. What is a claim of that kind. That claim has been, the state of the case? Why, the state of however, I am bound to say, deliberately the case is, that, generally speaking, when disallowed by us; and, I believe, that is a money is cheap, and when the price of the decision in the justice of which this House funds is high, the labouring classes save will acquiesce. But, at the same time, as a good deal of money, and the deposits in my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton the savings banks become much larger (Sir J. W. Hogg) has given notice of his than the outgoings; considerable sums are intention to bring the case under the then sent up to the Commissioners for the notice of the House at an early period in National Debt, which it is their duty to inthe next Session, I do not think that I vest in the public securities, and which very ought to forestall its decision, or to enter frequently, no doubt, they do invest at high into any explanation of the grounds on prices. At other periods you have money which the Government have proceeded in dear, and the pressure on the labouring disallowing the claim. I now come to the classes, or, as at present, not so much the second question opened by the hon. Ba- pressure on the labouring classes, as the ronet with respect to what he termed the demand for emigration, necessitate the sale of stock belonging to the savings withdrawal of a good deal of money from banks, and the purchase of Exchequer the savings banks. The same result is probills with the proceeds of that sale. There duced by the popularity of the building sois here an old quarrel between the hon. cieties, and other modes of investing money; Baronet and myself, which I am afraid we and large demands are then made on the can never settle. He insists on calling the National Debt Commissioners. This year stock held by the Commissioners of the happens to be one in which the calls made National Debt the stock of the savings on them have been very considerable, and banks. But I believe it is no more the have very greatly exceeded the sums they stock of the savings banks than any stock have received. The hon. Baronet says which may happen to belong to him or to that I sold out 500,000l. or 600,000Z. any other Member of this House. The worth of stock, at prices varying from 91 savings banks have nothing to do with to 94, whereas at former periods large it. If that stock were increased two- quantities of stock have been bought at a fold the savings banks would not be a much higher price; and he says that that penny the richer, and if every farthing of is a very improvident proceeding. Why, it were pitched into the bottom of the sea Sir, there never was a more gross non the savings banks would not be a penny sequitur. What I had to consider was, the poorer. It is a stock not standing to not the price at which they were bought, the credit of the savings banks, as the but the possible terms on which I could hon. Baronet supposes, but standing to provide for the calls made on the savings the credit of the National Debt Commis- banks and consequently upon the National sioners, and being in law their property, Debt Commissioners. Suppose every farand theirs only. That which stands to thing of the stock had been purchased at the credit of the savings banks is only a par; suppose the price of the stock was certain sum of money, and not a stock in 90, and suppose that I had foreseen with the books of the National Debt Commis- certainty that the price of stock must fall sioners, that sum representing the actual and that the drain would continue, of receipts of the Commissioners from the course it would have been my duty to sell at savings bank depositors, with the interest 90 rather than wait until the funds should

quer bills. If I purchased bills in order to meet the drain on the savings banks, I must have afterwards gone to the money market and sold them-an operation which would have been very inconvenient, and which would have tended to disturb and depress that market. The hon. Baronet need not entertain any apprehension that in respect of these bills there is the slightest intention to create a new stock. I entirely demur to the doctrine of the hon. Baronet that the consolidation of Exchequer bills last year was a creation of a new debt; it was merely a funding of Exchequer bills. But, at the same time, this is a transaction of an entirely different character, and these bills have no connection with the creation of a new stock. I informed the hon. Baronet, at the commencement of the Session, in reply to a question which he addressed to me, that there was no intention of creating any new stock— that it was impossible to give any pledge upon such a subject, or to foresee what the public interest might require; but that, as far as the Government could then see, they had no such intention. This is a simple fact. It has had nothing to do with the creation of a new stock; it is an eco

fall to 85, and that is the principle on which I acted this year. I am happy to say that the tide seems now to be turning, and that the drain has of late become greatly diminished. But having seen that heavy drain going on, it was my duty to provide for it, and the question for me to consider was, whether the price of stock was such as to make it my interest to take the opportunity of making that provision at the present time, or to wait and take my chance of the harvest, of the war, and of the state of the money market. I certainly thought that we had a few weeks ago an extraordinary high price of the funds. There is no doubt about that; it was observed by everybody. We had the funds running up from 91, to 92, 93, and 94, during a period of war, and with the rate of discount at 5 per cent. That was a state of things little less than marvellous, and it was one which I could not expect would continue. Having this drain going on to the extent of 30,000l. or 40,000l. a week, it was my duty-and I think the procceding was a provident one-to avail myself of the state of the money market, and to raise money by the sale of stock, and that was the course which I pursued. I was very glad, therefore, that the hon. Ba-nomical arrangement, and one which I am ronet mentioned the circumstance, for I consider it a provident proceeding on my part to have taken advantage of that state of the money market, and to have realised some of the money at the high prices then prevailing, rather than sell from week to week, with the certainty of stock being lower. I thought it was wise and expedient to replenish the balance which I held at the time, as I found I could do so with great advantage to the public. But the hon. Baronet says that I not only sold savings bank stock, but that I purchased with the proceeds Exchequer bills. There is a little mistake of the hon. Baronet in that statement, because the bills which I purchased were not Exchequer bills, but Consolidated Fund bills, which are securities of a different character. The latter securities are, in point of fact, deficiency bills, payable at par on quarter day. The taking up of these Consolidated Fund bills was a very simple operation. They amounted to 500,000l., and if I had not taken them up through the National Debt Commissioners I should have paid interest on them to the Bank at the rate of 2d. per day, or 31. 8s. per cent per annum. believe that the measure I have adopted was a much better one than buying Exche

I

sure will meet with the approval of the House. That is all the information I have now to give upon the subject; and I hope I have fully answered the questions of the hon. Baronet.

MR. WILKINSON said, it appeared to him that the Government were placed in a very disadvantageous position by an arrangement which compelled them to purchase in the market when stock was high, and to sell stock when it was low. In his opinion some much better arrangement might be adopted, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would direct his attention to the improvement of the present system.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I have been endeavouring to make a thorough investigation of the matter, in order to see how the system has worked. I have lately had a statement prepared, but which is not quite completed, from which it appears that the average price of all the purchases in the Three per Cent Stock by the National Debt Commissioners is 91 1-16th, and that the average price of all their sales in the same stock has been 877, and therefore so far as the principal operation of the National Debt Commissioners is concerned, their sales have realised less than their purchases by the difference bc

tween 87% and 91 1-16th. But in another | did not think that there was any other description of stock, namely-the Three- country in the world where cases could be and-a-half per Cents-they have bought at 95 13-16ths and sold at 96, thereby realising a profit, although not a very considerable one. I shall direct my earnest attention to the subject, with a view to devise some improvement of the practice which has hitherto prevailed.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he had not made the mistake imputed to him by the right hon. Gentleman of confounding money with stock. What he wished to hear from the right hon. Gentleman was, a denial that the savings banks money, which he believed to be a sacred trust, had ever been used for State purposes, or to sustain the Exchequer-bill market.

MR. HUME said, that he had some years since laid Resolutions on the table of the House, showing, that up to that period there had been a loss of nearly 3,000,000l. to the country, and it had now, he believed, reached to very nearly 5,000,0001. He had endeavoured year after year to prevent this waste of public money, but his efforts had been futile. He trusted, however, that the Government would see the necessity of remedying so glaring an evil. He hoped that the result of the discussion would tend to cause quiry into the causes of loss sustained by the public. At present one source of loss arose from greater interest being paid than the average rate of interest, and losses also arose from other causes.

found of gentlemen of information, of experience, and of substance, who were willing to give their services for no reward at all. Happily, in this country such cases were frequent, but he thought that the House would feel that it was right that such instances should be held up for public approval, in order that the approbation of a body of gentlemen like the British House of Commons might operate as a reward to those persons who had rendered such services to the State, and might at the same time encourage others to come forward and render similar benefits to their country.

MR. HUME said, he rose to express his concurrence in what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman with regard to Mr. Harrison.

Bill read 3o, and passed.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S REVENUE
ACCOUNTS.

MR. J. WILSON brought up
port on the Resolutions.

the re

MR. HUME said that, as last night the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald) accused the East India Company of acting partially against the Queen's in-officers, he wished to observe that the Queen's officers experienced no injustice, and that up to the present moment it was the Company's officers who had to complain that the higher commands were not given to them. A Queen's officer, LieuteTHE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- nant General Anson, had just been proQUER: I wish to remind the hon. Mem- moted over the heads of eighty-two Indian ber for Montrose that I have introduced a lieutenant generals to command the troops Bill on the subject of the interest paid by at Madras. With reference to his obsersavings banks, but that it has been impos-vations on Lord Dalhousie, he wished to sible to proceed with it during the present Session. I must, however, protest against the doctrine that the savings-banks money is trust money; it is no more trust money than money in the till of a private banker. Bill read 3°, and passed.

explain that, in speaking yesterday, while he condemned one part of his Lordship's conduct, he also took occasion to do the noble Lord justice as an executive officer, being of opinion that, in many respects, his services were above all praise.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD said,

INCUMBERED ESTATES (WEST INDIES) he would admit that, as regarded the

BILL.

Order for Third Reading read.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he wished to say a few words on the subject of a gentleman who was the chairman of the Exchequer Loan Commission, Mr. Benjamin Harrison, who had, without honour or remuneration, devoted his services to the benefit of the public, and who had established a strong claim upon the gratitude of the country. He

higher commands, appointments were given to officers in the Queen's service to the exclusion of officers in the Company's service; but what he desired to call attention to was, the absolute exclusion from general staff appointments of Queen's officers.

Resolutions agreed to.

The House adjourned at Four o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Thursday, August 10, 1854.

MINUTES.] Sat first in Parliament.-The Lord
Granard, after the death of his Grandfather.
PUBLIC BILLS. 2a Mayo County Advances
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Customs.
3 Russian Government Securities; Militia
(Ireland); Militia Ballots Suspension; Militia
Pay; Mayo County Advances.
ROYAL ASSENT.

Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2); Burials beyond the Metropolis; Land, Assessed, and Income Taxes; Spirits (Ireland); Youthful Offenders; Valuation of Lands (Scotland); Usury Laws Repeal; Benefices Augmentation; Stamp Duties; Marriages (Mexico); Crime and Outrage (Ireland); Standard of Gold and Silver Wares; Inclosure, &c., of Land; Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland); National Gallery, &c. (Dublin); Merchant Shipping; Towns Improvement (Ireland); Duchy of Cornwall Office; Public Health; Bribery; Court of Chancery; Friendly Societies Acts Con

tinuance.

MONUMENT TO THOMAS CAMPBELL

THE POET.

LORD CAMPBELL wished to put to the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government a question of which he had given him notice. He mentioned the subject he was about to bring under their Lordships' attention at the request of the executors of one of the greatest of our poets Thomas Campbell. He (Lord Campbell) was present when the remains of that distinguished man were deposited in Westminster Abbey, and he saw on that occasion the Earl of Aberdeen, the late Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and many of the most illustrious characters in this country, assembled to do homage to the genius and virtue of the departed poet. It was a matter of satisfaction to all who felt an interest in the honour of the country, that the remains of Thomas Campbell were deposited in Westminster Abbey, and it was agreed that a subscription should be made with the view of erecting a monument to his memory in Poets' Corner, amid the memorials of men who had done so much honour to English literature, and a statue had been accordingly completed by an eminent sculptor. The subscribers included persons of all ranks, from the Queen to the humblest individuals in the kingdom. But, of course, before the statue could be erected, it was necessary to obtain the permission of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. The Dean and Chapter made no objection, and could make no

objection, to any of the writings of the deceased. They knew him to have been a sincere Christian; they knew that he was not only the poet of liberty but of order, and that all his writings tended to promote the cause of morality and religion. Thomas Campbell was also the author of poems which not only celebrated the naval glories of England, but which would perpetuate those glories. Although, however, the Dean and Chapter offered no objection to the erection of a statue, they made a pecuniary demand. The executors of the deceased had paid a sum of 731. 5s. 2d. for the grave, and they paid a further sum of 71. 7s. for leave to put the name of the poet upon the stone that covered the tomb. But now the Dean and Chapter further demanded 2101. for two square feet of ground to be occupied by the pedestal of the statue. The subscription that had been raised for providing the statue was exhausted, although very moderate compensation had been given to the distinguished artist by whom the statue was executed. There were, therefore, no means of paying the demand made by the Dean and Chapter. A representation had been made to them upon the subject, but they were relentless; they said they must have the 200 guineas, or the statue should never enter Westminster Abbey. statue had consequently remained for five years in the studio of the artist, having been excluded from that national temple for which it was destined. He should have thought that the Dean and Chapter would have waived their claim in order to do honour to the memory of so distinguished a poet; but although repeated representations had been made to them they still persisted in their demand. The Dean and Chapter received grants from the publie funds for the repairs of the Abbey, and they had therefore no right to act as if the edifice were the mere private property of the corporation, instead of being national property. The Dean and Chapter could not say in one breath that the Abbey was the national Pantheon, while in another they maintained that it was their private property. He thought their Lordships would agree that this was a state of things which should not continue to exist. was convinced that the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) took as lively an interest in everything that concerned the honour of the country as could be felt by any individual, and that he would be most anxious that this reproach should be wiped away. He (Lord Campbell) begged, there

The

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