India was, that it would reduce the Go- | 1845 they amounted to 1,495,1271. and 679,2861. vernment of that empire to the condition respectively.” of that of one of our Colonies, that Parliamentary influence with our Colonies had been generally deprecated, and Indian reformers were asked, whether they would have a system of ruling which was so deprecated introduced into that large country? That was the position which was thrust into their faces; but the House would observe there was one thing which, in the consideration of this matter, ought to be weighed most carefully; and that was, the extraordinary difference existing between the Colonies of this country and the empire of India. With respect to the Colonies in connection with this country, he might presume to speak with some degree of authority, having lived in one of them, and it would be found, as a general rule, that they were inhabited by an Anglo-Saxon democratic people, struggling for self-government, and animated by few of those feelings of interest in the aristocracy which appertained to the mother country. In general they had obtained self-government; they had, however, been unruly; the mother country had been annoyed during the struggle, but in the main they had succeeded in obtaining good government. India, on the contrary, was a large peninsula, a populous country, necessarily under a despotism, and it was, therefore, as utterly dissimilar in its condition to any of our Colonies as one country could be to another; to compare India with a colony was to compare two countries wholly different in their characteristics. It was, however, unnecessary to institute such a comparison, or to found any argument upon it, because we had an example of colonial government as applied to an Asiatic colony in direct juxtaposition with the government of India, and that example was to be found in the island of Ceylon, and he could show the House that that colony had during the last two or three years progressed in a more rapid and extraordinary manner than even India itself "In 1834 the first coffee estates were planted. In 1854 there were upwards of 300 plantations in full bearing, containing 60,000 acres of planted land. The capital thus invested by Europeans has been about 4,000,000l. Between the years 1838 and 1843 the Ceylon Government sold 250,000 acres of Crown land, and opened 800 miles of good carriage-road. There are now more than 3,000 miles of road in Ceylon. In 1837 the coffee shipped amounted to 43,000 cwt.; in 1852 to 324,000 cwt. In 1837 the value of the imports was 595,8881., that of the exports 326,8607. In Sir E. Perry That was the wonderful state of progress in that island during the period he had described, and it was entirely owing to European enterprise and the investment of European capital giving to that island large views of government. While, then, he expressed his own opinion as to the views which were brought forward last year upon this subject, and advocated so strongly, he entreated the House to remember the manner in which those views were met by the leading statesmen of this country; they were met in a manner which led to the material curtailment of the power of the Court of Directors, and to the transfer of that power, and with it the responsibility it entailed, to the Government. The Court of Directors was a mighty power; it had all the prestige attaching to the prolonged existence of 250 years; its antecedents and its history were the antecedents and the history of a power of no small importance. Its gigantic patronage had given it relations and interest in every household of the kingdom; its claims in the opinion of all sober-minded men were substantial, and on conservative affections could not be otherwise than great; but, notwithstanding all this, when the views to which he had referred were propounded in that House and disseminated out of doors, excepting the immediate retainers of the Company, not a single voice was raised in its favour. In no other way could that be explained than in this :-The leading statesmen of this country saw that the existing system had become effete-that it was no longer in harmony with the spirit of the times-and that the feeling had grown up in the minds of men that this mighty empire could only be governed and be increased with safety by those who, in a Parliamentary government like that of England, were placed at the head of affairs. Parliament required to know, and India required to know, how the government of 150,000,000 of the human race was to be conducted, and the circumstances of the time demanded that its administration should be brought under Parliamentary influence, for as long as another body existed, which practically had the government of India, they would never get a House-more than they had that nightto listen to a statement respecting Indian financial affairs or the progress of improvement in that country. If the right hon. Baronet or the House referred to the origin of the Indian speeches which they might | salaries, &c., of the secretaries and officers read in Hansard, they would find that in of Court of Directors, 94,3871.; Board of many cases they were never made in the Control and establishment, 29,4207.; rent House at all, being the production of some of India House and other buildings of the clerk in the India House, who used to pre- Company, at 6 per cent on their own vapare them, and then, after Mr. Dundas had luation of 506,9191., 32,9501.; rent for delivered a few sentences to the House, India Board, on a valuation of 40,000l., the MS. was handed over to Hansard; 2,6007.-making, in the whole, 198,9871. he was even told that the clerk in the Now, let them contrast that with the cost Board of Control could show a number of the of Government offices which transacted speeches got up in that manner. Unless, similar duties-he meant the Colonial therefore, they got the ordinary Parliamen- Office, doing the business of fifty-three tary motives to bear in relation to this Governments, which amounted to 40,5501., question, it never could be a general sub- and if they added 10,000l. a year as salaject of interest to the discussion of which ries of the Court of Directors, supposing hon. Members would aspire. He was glad them to continue always in existence, the to have had the opportunity of stating his whole cost would be 50,5501.; therefore, views on this point, believing as he did the sum of 150,000l., or near it, might be that truth, although it might be told to an applied to the purposes shadowed forth by audience however small, would ascend in the right hon. Baronet. He trusted that the world, and, being disseminated, take some hon. Member with more experience firm hold of the public mind, arming itself than himself would favour the House with at last with irresistible power. He was his opinion of the practicability of such an unwilling to dwell longer on this subject, amalgamation, for if a saving to that exbut he wished before he sat down to call tent could indeed be effected, it might be the attention of the House to a point con- attended with the most important advannected with finance, on which he conceived tages to India, and he had sanguine hopes it might interfere most beneficially in the the matter would be investigated by the interest of India-he meant with respect right hon. Baronet himself, as he (Sir E. to the propriety of an arrangement for Perry) had seen enough of the Governbringing the offices of the Directors of the ment of India to know that their chief East India Company into close connection desire was to deal out justice to the Nawith the Government offices. That sub- tives of that country, and in their superject excited the attention of Parliament vision to correct what was wrong. last Session, and if any hon. Gentle- sympathised with the hon. Baronet the man would refer to the divisions which Member for Honiton (Sir J, Hogg), in the took place on it, he would find the assertion, that an attempt to do justice had House was almost equally divided on the characterised the rule of the East India question before them. The division, he Company. With the mass of business that recollected, was sixty-one to seventy-four, fell to a Member of Parliament, it was the proposition for bringing those offices impossible to waste a day in conferring together being negatived by a majority of with a clerk at the India House on points thirteen, and in the minority of sixty-one upon which information was desired, and would be found the names of a large num- which the Board of Control did not conber of Gentlemen on that side of the House tain. The governing mind upon various who were known friends of India. The small points of Indian administration could right hon. Baronet had detailed to them only be found among the superior class of that evening the various expenses of India, examiners of correspondence at the East and it certainly did strike him (Sir E. India House. Great benefit would result Perry) that it was most absurd that the from getting all the Government authorioffices of two consulting bodies should be ties of India into one building, situate in more than four miles apart. He thought the immediate vicinity of the other Governhe could show the House how they could ment offices. He should not have gone so save to India at least 150,0001. The fully into the subject in so thin a House, whole cost of what he might call the double except that the opportunity of speaking government, taking it on the most moderate upon Indian subjects arose so seldom that calculation, was as follows:-Salaries of one, who like himself strongly felt the Court of Directors (now 10,000l.), 7,5681.; responsibility cast upon this country by of contingent expenses, consisting of repairs, Providence in regard to India, would not taxes, &c., and petty charges, 32,0621.; do his duty if he did not seize any occa He sion of this kind that might present itself. Any one who had studied Indian history must see that the temper of the times had greatly changed, and that the views of the public had been much enlarged since the discussions of this subject commenced; fifty or 100 years ago the question was how much money could be got out of India, and not how much the Government could benefit 150,000,000 of our fellow-subjects. But the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control, and others, were becoming sensible of the holiness of our mission. Parliament was 66 rising to the height of this great argument." He was sure that the most enlightened minds were desirous that our government in India should assume the most liberal form of policy that was compatible with the despotism that must always exist in an Asiatic country. This policy was as sound as it was unselfish, and he was sure it was only by the adoption of this large and generous policy that Parliament could preserve the connection that now existed for the benefit of both countries, and which, if every act were conceived in the same spirit, would, he trusted, continue for countless generations. MR. KINNAIRD said, that after the House had been sitting for ten hours, and after a speech from the President of the Board of Control which had occupied two hours and a half in its delivery, it would ill become him to trespass at any length upon the House. He wished, however, that the right hon. Baronet would take into consideration the propriety of sending out instructions, that the accounts should not be made up to April, but that they should be closed in December. The accounts would then reach this country in June, and the right hon. Baronet would not have to make his next speech to a House, the number of whose Members varied from eleven to thirteen, as had been the case tonight. He greatly regretted that this very important statement had been put off until the very close of the Session. He trusted that the public works for the benefit of the people would be continued, and he would suggest to the right hon. Baronet that the Governors of the four presidencies of Madras, Bombay, Bengal, and Agra, and the officer at the head of the administration of the principalities of Scinde, Pegu, and the Punjab, should be instructed, at the close of each year, following the example of the Earl of Elgin in the case of Canada, to draw up a Report of the progress which had been Sir E. Perry made in the departments of civil and criminal justice, the state of the finances, and the condition of commerce, the improvement in police, in roads, bridges, and internal communication, and also the progress that had been made in the education of the people, so as to give a distinct view of the position and prospects of the respective provinces. If such Reports were laid upon the table annually at the time of the Indian Budget, they would be of incalculable good. They would create a wholesome and a generous emulation among the Governors, and infuse a spirit of greater zeal into their operations. The annual account would enable Parliament, the press, and the public to compare the success of the measures of one period with another, and test the real progress of India. He believed that the government of India by this country had tended upon the whole to the benefit of the inhabitants, and he thought Parliament might boldly invite th criticism of the world upon it. MR. HUME said, that the Reports upon the state of the different provinces of India, which his hon. Friend (Mr. Kinnaird) wished for, were regularly forwarded to the Court of Directors. [Mr. KINNAIRD: But not to Parliament.] That was because the superintending officer of the Government in that House had never done his duty by calling for them. If the hon. Member would look at the Reports by Colonel Sykes, he would find that there were better Reports accessible to him of India than of England. It was not information that was wanted, but publicity. He believed that the Directors of the East India Company had determined to give greater publicity to their proceedings than hitherto, not only here, but in India, where the greatest mystery and secresy had been observed. He was disappointed in the speech of the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), from whom he had expected a statement of what he had seen in India, and what he proposed to do for the people of that country. With regard to the accounts, if they were made up to the 30th of April, as at present, ample time would be afforded for having them correctly laid upon the table; and he thought, therefore, that no alteration was required in the date to which they were made up. He believed that the Government had taken the proper course for ascertaining the requirements of so large and diversified a class as the people of India, and he hoped the interest taken in that people would continue to increase in future. He felt the greatest gratification at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control. He had begun his administration well, and he (Mr. Hume) trusted that from this time forward we might expect to see an annual improvement in the state of our Indian empire. He did not himself wish for many of the alterations in the details of administration which had been referred to by previous speakers. What he desired was, such measures as would improve the condition of the Natives. And an excellent commencement in that direction had been made in the despatch which had just been sent out, directing the establishment of a system of education. That despatch proceeded upon the right principle of leaving the details of the scheme to be settled in India. For it was utterly impossible for any set of men here to point out the precise measures required for each district of a continent so diversified in character as was Hindostan. It was, however, requisite that that House should be kept informed of what was done, in order that it might be able to guard against any neglect. It was much to the credit of the Government that they proposed to give education to all without distinction of sect or creed. He hoped that in the next Session of Parliament the President of the Board of Control would lay on the table of the House the Resolutions which he intended to move some days before he made his speech. The Resolutions might have been a mere matter of form this year, but it would not be so in future. He could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it was impossible to improve the revenue of the Presidency of Madras. On the contrary, he thought that Colonel Cotton had conclusively proved that, by the introduction of improved means of communication, the condition of the people might be much improved, and consequently the revenue materially augmented. Let them consider what our facilities of communication had done for England. Well, he believed that India presented capabilities for equal improvement. Looking to the market which Australia would now afford for Indian produce, he was much mistaken if the large outlay on roads and canals which the Government had authorised would not be attended with a most beneficial effect both upon the credit of the country and of the revenue. In order, however, to attain this end, it was very desirable that more attention should be paid to irrigation than had VOL. CXXXV. [THIRD SERIES.] been done for some time past, and that the Natives should be relieved from vexatious imposts like the Moturpha tax, the payment for water, and the tax on the sinking of wells. With regard to the military establishments of India, the right hon. Gentleman had correctly pointed out that the Native troops were numerous, and the British troops few. But he must press upon the Government the necessity of doing justice to the former troops, and to the 5,000 or 6,000 European officers who commanded them. They had at present much cause to complain that very little attention was often paid to their just claims. He must, in the most emphatic manner, express his dissent from the doctrines laid down by Lord Dalhousie with respect to the acquisition of provinces now under the rule of Native princes. We had now a great and important empire in India; we had 150,000,000 of people under our sway; and he (Mr. Hume) wished to see our measures directed to the improvement of the condition of our present subjectsto making them rich and happy-rather than to the acquisition of further territory. And more than that, he desired to see the Native princes of India following our example, and improving the condition of their dominions by the same measures which had been already successful in ours. MR. DANBY SEYMOUR said, there were many topics in the speech of the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control which called for observation, but at that late hour he would only detain the Committee by adverting to one or two of them. He admitted the great improvement which had been made during the last twelve months in the government of India, which in a great measure was due to the influence and exertions of the right hon. Baronet. His minute on education would be received with approbation from one end of the country to the other; but, at the same time, he could not help telling him that, with regard to the salt tax and the supply of salt to India, he took an exceedingly erroneous view, and must have been greatly misinformed upon this branch of the subject. He differed from the right hon. Gentleman as regarded the state of the people of Bengal, which he had been told by well-informed persons was as bad as Madras. One great fact had come out from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, namely, that there was a deficit of 800,000l., and, therefore, it would be necessary to press upon the 3 B He ment of the right hon. Baronet had not been made at an earlier period of the Session, and also that the Members connected with India were not in attendance in the House on so important an occasion. thought the misfortunes of the people of India arose from the vice of the land tenures in that country, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would attend to that subject, as vicious tenures of land had been the ruin of the West Indies as well as of Ireland. The condition of the rural population of Poonah, in June, 1854, was of the worst description; they were literally famished, and thousands of them had been living on roots for the preceding four months, all because of the viciousness of the land tenures in that country. Government of India the necessity of retrenchment. One of the most obvious ways in which this reduction of expenditure could be effected, would be by making the regular cavalry irregular, which would diminish the cost by one-half. The regular cavalry was quite inefficient; and the only reason why it was kept up was, that the Directors might have the opportunity of giving away the commissions. The patronage of the Directors had been diminished; but it had now to be divided amongst fewer persons, so that each had more than fell to his share before the Charter Act of last year. So bad was the Madras regular cavalry, that out of eight regiments there was only one that had not mutinied or shot its officers. The right hon. Gentleman should press the Directors to adopt the policy of Sir Robert Peel, and to reduce or wholly abolish taxation upon the chief articles of consumption of the great mass of the population. MR. J. G. PHILLIMORE said, he fully concurred in the panegyrics which had been pronounced on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman; but he trusted that he would not be led away to prefer rapid to cheap transit. Another point in which he (Mr. J. G. Phillimore) took great interest was the navigation of the Godavery. Were that river made practicable for 500 miles it would do more for India than any other step that could be taken, and it would enable us to grow cotton at a much cheaper cost than could be done by America itself. As to the extension of our territory, he looked upon every annexation with apprehension. Our object ought to be, not to extend, but to improve, our possessions. MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD said, he must complain that the officers of the Queen's service were by the existing rules placed in a most injurious and degrading position. He could understand why a preference should be given to officers in the Company's service; but this was not a matter of preference, but of absolute monopoly. An officer in the Queen's service might be a most able and distinguished man, but he was shut out from all the honours and emoluments of his profession, as long as there was any Company's officer that by any possibility could be presented to them. The true remedy would be to amalgamate the two services; for he thought that there should be but one service, and that the Queen's. SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he must beg to express the great gratification he felt at the approbation hon. Gentlemen had been pleased to bestow upon his statement. With regard to the observations upon minor points, he was quite aware that many improvements might be made. With regard to the debt, there might be found, at pages 43 and 44 of the Report, a full statement of it, and the interest paid. As to the universal confiscation of the property of Indian Princes, that was not near so universal as had been stated. He wished at the same time to correct a misapprehension under which his hon. Friend (Mr. V. Scully) laboured. Owing to the want of rain there had been last year a failure of the crops, and to that circumstance the destitution was to be attributed, and not to the state of the land tenure. With respect to the observations which had been made in relation to the Godavery, he had to observe that certain works had been recommended and executed for the improvement of the navigation, and that further works were contemplated for the like object, so as to carry the navigation, if possible, into the heart of the country, and render the river navigable as far as possible. Resolved 1. "That the total net Revenues of the Bengal Presidency, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 7,584,435l, sterling; than Military Charges, amounted to 1,926,3627. and the Charges thereof for the same period, other sterling." Resolved 2. "That the total net Revenues of the North Western Provinces, including the newly acquired Territory, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 5,670,7157. sterling; than Military Charges, amounted to 1,402,238ł. and the Charges thereof for the same period, other MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he thought it was unfortunate that the state-sterling." Mr. D. Seymour |