HOUSE OF LORDS,

Napier) that his hon. and learned Friend ought to be allowed to complete the work which he had so honourably and successfully begun, and that it ought not to be taken out of his hands by the Government.

Thursday, July 13, 1854.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Acknowledgmen
of Deeds by Married Women; Commons In
closure (No. 2); Court of Chancery.
2a Merchant Shipping.

3a Oxford University; Cruelty to Animals.

SIR JOHN YOUNG said, he must beg to state that, on the second reading of the Bill, he told the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was not his intention to support the measure, and since that time he THE SLAVE TRADE ON THE COAst of had received several communications from parties, assigning reasons why the Bill should not pass in its present shape.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he had no recollection of any such statements having been made on the second reading as the right hon. Gentleman had just mentioned.

CIRCASSIA.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD claimed the indulgence of their Lordships while he put a question to the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, of which he had given him notice, and which was one of great interest to the public. He had to recall to their Lordships' recollection that there MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he had appeared in the public journals within thought that sufficient reason for the with- the last few days a series of statements, drawal of the Bill was to be found in the which would lead their readers to imagine fact that the country had not had an op- that the first effect of the deliverance of portunity of pronouncing upon it. He the Circassian coast from the Russian dothought that this was a question which mination had been to revive there, in its ought to be left to the Government, and worst form, that greatest curse with which that the public had a right to complain the human race had ever been afflicted— that neither the present nor the late Go- the slave trade. A correspondent of one of vernment had taken any step to carry out the morning journals wrote as follows— the recommendations of the Committee on this subject.

as much reformation as the other branch.

"At present the only trade that may said to be carried on here is that in women, and that seems to be extraordinarily active at present, from the large prices obtainable in Constantinople, and the good authority that a girl bought for 15 purses removal of all obstacles. I have been told from here, is sold in Constantinople for 40.

Num

MR. F. SCULLY said, he would suggest that, in any measure to be brought in by Government for the reformation of the jury system in Ireland, its provisions should not be confined to mere nisi prius juries,bers of little boats arrive all along the coasts but should be extended to grand juries, from Trebizonde almost every day. They haul the grand jury system in Ireland requiring themselves up on the beach and spread the sails on the sides of the boat to form tents; here the their girls to exchange against his cargo, which captain sits, and the natives bring down to him generally consists of calicoes, prints, and other stuffs, and of salt. There is no money in the counference to so many pieces of calico, each piece try, so that all the bargains are struck with rebeing called a 'mall; one mall' is worth about 15s., and 25' malls' make a Turkish ‘purse.' Another correspondent wrote—

LORD NAAS said, that the late Government had made considerable progress in the preparation of a Bill to deal with that subject. They could not have brought forward a measure founded on the Report of the Committee which had inquired into the question during the Session in which they had been in office, as that Report had not been produced until the beginning of the month of June, and as the Session had been brought to a close in the beginning of the month of July.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question,' put, and negatived.

Main Question, as

Words added: amended, put, and agreed to.

Bill put off for three months.

sarily ceased.

on the increase here. Every boat that arrives
"I regret to state that the slave trade is greatly
from the ports of Abasia brings in eight or ten
girls or boys destined for the Constantinople
market. It is right to add, that when the coast
was blockaded by the Russians this traffic neces-
But now that communications
with Trebizonde are free, the rush to dispose of
daughters, sons, sisters, &c., is immense. I hope
that our Government at home will bear this in
mind, and put an end to such ill-practices.
I re-
gret, also, to mention that the Austrian steamers
do not raise objections to convey the slaves to

The House adjourned at two minutes Constantinople, and every boat takes 80 or 100 before Six o'clock.

mmmmm

down."

Now, he thought it was of great moment

H

-am the place in which - be irregular for Early. I have be has been imputed to free, of having introduc ET, and presented to a an subject—the sub hich we are at pres alen, my Lords, a R is moment in this co well known to seve is high character, ad his partiality fo vell known. Russia, not from int, but from Ma pending the wint He climate. I belie ployed in any ca ; but he has spe life in travelling the world, and this co peatedly. His obj a time is to settle matters, but principa se intimate friends re that, which at his circumstances, m x from them. As t g Count Pahlen I think I need only my birth he was a day father, of the Du Sarl Grey, and of a et distinguished me Since the earliest time

ordships' attention, and that | other Governments, had been directed to
sty's Government, to such a the subject, and, although Her Majesty's
that; because, although hap- Ambassadors at Constantinople had stated
nt the great and necessary reasons why they feared the abolition of
I this country was engaged, this traffic amounted almost to an impos-
opular, there was no reason sibility, yet, two or three years ago, Lord
of long continuance, it should Stratford de Redeliffe, acting upon in-
same fate of all the wars in structions received at the time from Lord
nd had been ever embarked, Palmerston, did bring the matter formally
eventually unpopular; and he and seriously before the attention of the
r Lordships would agree with Ottoman Secretary of State for Foreign
nion, that it would be a great Affairs; but he regretted to say that Lord
the objects for which the war Stratford did not consider he could afford
en were left unaccomplished any reasonable hopes that such interfe-
tion. On the other hand, he rence upon the part of foreign Governments
hing would tend more to the would be successful, because of the habits
uch an unhappy feeling in and customs of the Ottoman people. With
ind of the country than a regard, however, to any particular infor-
e very first effect of the ar- mation possessed by him on the subject,
rms off the coast had been to he was unable to tell his right rev. Friend
ominable evil. He thought, whether the description he had communi-
ould tend greatly to quiet the cated this evening to their Lordships was
y throughout the country if correct or not, or whether the statement
is Government were able to was well founded that the trade had greatly
attention, at least, had been increased since the withdrawal of Russian
subject, and that whatever troops from the coast, or whether the de-
een the first effect of the de- scription merely referred to the ordinary
e Russian forts, it would be traffic. However, even since his right rev.
England. He was sure that Friend had given notice of his intention to
the great mass of the people put his question, he had seen a despatch
ry would be not a little mis- which had arrived from Admiral Dundas,
were led to believe that the saying that his attention had been called
a war, undertaken in the to the subject, and that consequently most
ce and righteousness, and for strict orders had been sent to the officers
a of the liberties of Europe, commanding Her Majesty's forces on the
uate and increase in Turkey coasts of Georgia and Circassia to inter-
to which humanity could be cept and prevent by all friendly means the
continuance of the traffic; and, what was
of more importance, Admiral Dundas said,
that having ascertained that Schamyl was
unfavourable and hostile to the trade, Her
Majesty's officers had received orders to
communicate with him and with his depu-
ties, in order to concert together measures
for its suppression, and prevent its conti-
nuance. That, then, was the first oppor-
tunity which Her Majesty's Government
had had of directly interfering in reference
to the traffic, but he hoped he need not
assure their Lordships that no effort would
be wanting on their part to effect its entire
suppression as soon as possible.

OF CLARENDON said, he paragraph to which the right had alluded with sentiments repugnance similar to those had given utterance, and he not surprised that his right with his well-known feelings ect, and with his hereditary cate the cause of the slave, rawn the attention of their of Her Majesty's Governsubject. Their Lordships e of all the features of what the social system of Turkey, not, therefore, be told of the lty that existed of inducing 1 Government to entertain question of the abolition of affic. But he could assure s that the efforts of Her Mament, as well as those of op of Oxford

COUNT PAHLEN-RUSSIAN SUBJECTS
IN LONDON.

EARL GRANVILLE said: My Lords, I
trust I may claim your indulgence while I
make a very short statement on a subject
personal to myself, arising out of a charge

I have received king

man, and I have al with the greatest re judgment I have ely. On his arrival my house, and I sig bly done before, the erdation, on the re al for the Committ Cab to invite strange b. That my conduc ful to that society, I that in the space of one Mail resterday not less ers of the club stopped dignation at the comp made. I have stated the character of Count

I

ere, and that, from the s
position which he h
dans to courtesy and ei
les of English society
long in honou

& Leen 60

may, perhaps, be all

to say a few words upon the more genera question. I entirely deny that it is not justifiable on the part of an Englishman to treat with civility and kindness the subject of a foreign Power, even when we are at

contrary are numerous on both sides, even during the late war, when the struggle was so intense, and when so many new restrictions were imposed on international intercourse. The law of nations in times of war was originally barbarous and unchristian in the highest degree; but, as civilisation advanced, mitigations have taken place from time to time in the severity of that code. The office which I lately had the honour to hold gave me the opportunity of taking a humble part in the modification of our own practice in time of war. Those modifications have received the almost unanimous

to which-from the place in which it was made-it would be irregular for me to refer more particularly. I have been accused, and it has been imputed to me as a grave offence, of having introduced into English society, and presented to an Eng-war with that Power. The cases to the lish club, a Russian subject—the subject of a country with which we are at present at war. Count Pahlen, my Lords, a Russian subject, is at this moment in this country. I believe he is well known to several of your Lordships; his high character, his accomplishments, and his partiality for this country, are also well known. He has come here, not from Russia, not from any part of the Continent, but from Madeira, where he has been spending the winter for the advantage of the climate, I believe he has never been employed in any capacity by his Government; but he has spent the greater part of his life in travelling in va-approval of this country and the sanction rious parts of the world, and this country he has visited repeatedly. His object in coming here at this time is to settle some small pecuniary matters, but principally to take leave of those intimate friends whom he has here, before that, which at his age, and under present circumstances, may be a final separation from them. As to the charge of introducing Count Pahlen into English society, I think I need only say, that at the time of my birth he was an intimate friend of my father, of the Duke of Wellington, of Earl Grey, and of a great many of the most distinguished men in this country. Since the earliest time that I can remember I have received kindness from that gentleman, and I have always seen him treated with the greatest respect by those on whose judgment I have been taught most to rely. On his arrival here I invited him to my house, and I signed, as I have frequently done before, the print-present moment, and of the feelings which ed form of recommendation, on the receipt of which it is usual for the Committee of the Travellers' Club to invite strangers as visitors to the club. That my conduct has not been distasteful to that society, I infer from the fact that in the space of one short ride along Pall Mall yesterday not less than twenty members of the club stopped me to express their indignation at the complaint which had been made. I have stated thus much to show the character of Count Pahlen's visit here, and that, from the somewhat exceptional position which he holds, he has strong claims to courtesy and civility from the members of English society with whom he has been so long in honourable relation; but I may, perhaps, be allowed

of public opinion all over the world. My Lords, it must be the interest of all civilised nations to mitigate, as far as possible, the evils of war; but, if it is the interest of any country, it is especially the interest of this country, which has connections and subjects all over the world, and even at this very moment in Russia itself. The only limit I know to such mitigation is, that we should not diminish our own power of carrying on the war with vigour, and therefore of bringing it to a speedy conclusion; but I ask your Lordships, whether civility to an individual stranger in this country, where everything is as open as noonday, can in the slightest degree weaken our means of attack or strengthen our enemy's means of defence? For my own part it appears to me that, if a perfectly faithful statement were taken to the Emperor of Russia of the material state of this country at the

animate every class of society with which at least I am in the slightest degree acquainted, such an account would not lead that Monarch to take a more favourable view of the probable issue of the war than he does at present. But, my Lords, as I have been accused of acting, not only in an unbecoming, but also in an illegal manner, it is some consolation to me to be able to say, that I have the sanction of the highest authority living in international law for every proposition which I have taken the liberty of laying before your Lordships. As a mere individual Member of your Lordships' House, I might, perhaps, have thought it impertinent-if I may use such a word-to trouble your Lordships with

the effect which any misrepreght have on our national relaught it right to trouble your ith this short statement; and down cleared, in your Lordn, of having acted improperly ngly, either as a servant of Her an individual Member of your

ouse.

We

ons arising out of this subject; | Government as compared with ours.
to the official position which I all know that there are many Russian gen-
tlemen of most accomplished and polished
manners and understandings. The gentle-
man who has been alluded to is one, and
we have seen others in this country who
are models of the intelligence and the high
feeling-who are too well known to your
Lordships to make any language necessary
to prove how unjustly the word "bar-
barous" can be applied to them, or indis-
criminately to the country and people they
represent. That the Russians are not
barbarous has been proved by the conduct
of their generals. I know nothing more
touching, and have read nothing in history
more gratifying to our feelings of chivalry
and Christianity, than the behaviour of the
Governor of Odessa, General Osten Sacken,
and his most amiable wife. I believe your
Lordships know how the General himself
behaved towards the prisoners, and how
his lady behaved to their wounded officers
and the poor boy who had fallen into the
power of the Russians. I am glad to
have said what I have done, because,
although no one can more strongly feel
anxiety for the carrying on of this war
with the whole force and vigour of this
country, though no words that I can use
can express my desire that Her Majesty's
Government should continue it, yet I
should be sorry that in an Assembly which
I may call the highest, and which, I be-
lieve, is certainly the oldest Legislative
Assembly in the world, language should be
used which should cause misapprehension
on this subject, or that our feelings upon
the point to which my noble Friend has
called the attention of your Lordships
should be misunderstood and misconstrued.

and at all times d have had the pleasure of ly say that all my ex Carter and conduct lead

ghest terms of both

Σ

the

2 from the hab f his mind, has kept from political occup etizen of the wor many foreign and have a taste for trymen, I belie consideration a f those, my Lord of war, equally should be men wh meeting links of s vigour of their ser intentions, an genius, in uniso great and 1 entries, as well a se, and, as opport the blessings of c Teer nations of the Be face of, and indepen BOUGHAM said, tha e gentleman to who een made needed no after what had fallen both sides of the B d been said in pra e most heartily concu for the purpose rely he concurred wi Marquess of Lansdo t excellent thing th it was possible, mi errors of war by no upon private

LOF MALMESBURY: My
ugh I think that my noble
somewhat exaggerated-has
strongly than he need-the
ch appear to have been made
upon this subject, I am very
e has brought it before your
hat the country may see that
es of the House there is no
ith the remarks which have
offensive to the noble Earl,
e to a high and honourable
who has for a few days en-
ospitality of this country. I
y that for my own part I
see those observations made
public journal and in another
ve had the honour of knowing
en for many years. He is,
re interested in, and has a
iality for, this country, than
reigner whom I ever knew. I
the whole occupations of his
ivate tastes, and his love of
emove him entirely from diplo-
litical questions, in which he
hat interest which every intel-
n must take in the questions
eing discussed at the present
d I cannot conceive how any
I could have seen, in his pre- VISCOUNT STRANGFORD said, that he
anger to the interests of this could boast of forty-two years' intimacy
our Lordships know that I am with Count Pahlen, and considered the
1 eager advocate for the vigor- friendship of such a man a legitimate sub-
ion of this war, which I consi-ject of congratulation.
and necessary; but your Lord-
me the justice to say, that in
have never used language which
trued, even by those partial to
overnment, as implying abuse
ssian statesmen and diploma-
> manner of their performing
or of the Russian nation itself.
I the word "barbarous" used
e as applying to Russia, and I
xious that all foreigners should
hen we use that adjective it is
to the persons of the Russians
issians, but to their mode of
'ranville

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE : It
is scarcely necessary for me to occupy
your Lordships' time in rising to bear my
cheerful testimony to the worth and merit
of that distinguished gentleman, whose
friendship noble Lords on both sides of
the House seem mutually desirous to ac-
knowledge and to boast of. I can only
say, that I myself have personally had the
advantage of knowing Count Pahlen for
the last thirty years, and a man more
distinguished in society I do not know, or
one who has made himself more respected
and esteemed in every way. Under all

straints

rse than the necessit
perative. It was a
e that such intere
als was in any w
Cntil the Em

0

First Consul of Fi hich he did in 1803 most usual during da war of extraord tement between the tet after the breaking 15 there were nume quent, instances of Fr red to remain in this Englishmen remainin ze proper passports, * restraints and sup well being allowed fre 2untries. He had MAY, THIRD

SERIES

circumstances and at all times during the self known many instances of this. It period I have had the pleasure of knowing was not even in modern times, and in the him, I can truly say that all my experience more mitigated form of war alone, that of his character and conduct leads me to this had prevailed. It was known to their speak in the highest terms of both; he is Lordships that, even in the dark ages, a gentleman who, from the habits and there were great exceptions as regarded tendencies of his mind, has kept himself individuals to the rule which excluded the peculiarly free from political occupations. intercourse of people in time of war. Ile He is really a citizen of the world, and had only to remind their Lordships of a as one of those many foreign and distin- distich, which, though not very classical, guished men who have a taste for the so- expressed a much more amicable feeling ciety of our countrymen, I believe him than classical times frequently exhibited:entitled to our high consideration and es- "Clericus, agricola, mercator tempore guerræ teem. I am one of those, my Lords, who think that in a time of war, equally as in a time of peace, there should be men who form as it were the connecting links of society, and who exert the vigour of their minds, the purity of their intentions, and the greatness of their genius, in unison with the intelligence of the great and learned men of all other countries, as well as their own, to combine, and, as opportunities occur, to diffuse the blessings of civilisation to the different nations of the world, and this in the face of, and independently of war.

LORD BROUGHAM said, that the highly respectable gentleman to whom reference had been made needed no testimony from him, after what had fallen from noble Lords on both sides of the House. With all that had been said in praise of Count Pahlen he most heartily concurred. He rose principally for the purpose of declaring how entirely he concurred with his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne), that it was a most excellent thing that we should, as far as it was possible, mitigate the inevitable horrors of war by not imposing more restraints upon private and personal intercourse than the necessities of war rendered imperative. It was a great mistake to suppose that such intercourse of a few individuals was in any way a modern invention. Until the Emperor Napoleon, then First Consul of France, took the step which he did in 1803, that intercourse was most usual during the whole course of a war of extraordinary violence and excitement between the parties; and even after the breaking out of hostilities in 1803 there were numerous, though not so frequent, instances of Frenchmen being allowed to remain in this country, and of Englishmen remaining in France, with the proper passports, and under the proper restraints and superintendence, but still being allowed freely to inhabit the two countries. He had himVOL. CXXXV. [THIRD SERIES.]

Movetque, colat, commutet, pace fruantur." This showed that we acted for our own interest in thus mitigating the severities of a state of war; and he thought it would be equally to our interest to extend still further that mitigation.

THE EARL OF CARLISLE: I have had the pleasure of knowing Count Pahlen for many years, and of meeting him in many countries and under various circumstances, and I am enabled to say that I never met a man who, while having due regard to the interest of, and attachment and affection for his own country, became entitled so much to the respect of every other country that he visited. I have the greatest pleasure in bearing my testimony, as a sincere friend, to his goodness and worth.

LORD CAMPBELL rejoiced that his noble Friend (Earl Granville) had been induced to say what he had upon this subject, and thought that his noble Friend had not had due credit for the exertions which he had used to effect the improvement that was required in the law of nations. There was no doubt that the laws of this country said, that a contract with an enemy was an unlawful contract; but no one ever could suppose that such an enactment was intended to apply so as to forbid the indulgence of the ordinary civilities of private life with the subject of a foreign country with which we might be at war, and that the encouragement of such civilities could in any way be construed as treason, misprision of treason, felony, or misdemeanor. He considered that the noble Earl had been very improperly assailed on this subject, and he thought too much praise could not be bestowed upon aim for his exertions in mitigating the restrictive laws of warfare. We talked much about law reform; now this branch of the law had received an unspeakable improvement since hostilities began; because, preserving our right of blockade, preserving our right of preventing contraband of war

F