and plenitude of its vigour. No commensurate advantage was offered to compensate; the revenues would be endangered; the manufacturers would perhaps be ruined; and no additional benefit could be derived from an open trade. Under all these circumstances, he felt it his duty to resist any general alteration of the system, being firmly convinced that no very material amelioration could be attained; and in order to place his views in the clearest light, and to support them by facts, he should conclude by moving for a variety of documents upon the subject, some of which might be before the house, and others might even be before the public, but which it was absolutely necessary to bring into one distinct point, to elucidate this important and intricate subject. His lordship then handed his motion to the wool sack. The question having been put, The earl of Buckinghamshire rose, because he thought he should be guilty of unpardonable neglect of the duties of his office, if he did not make a few observations upon what had fallen from the noble marquis. Ministers had been charged with having precipitately, and without due inquiry, brought forward this system, described and admitted to be of such great importance. That this remark should have been made by the noble marquis, was most extraordinary, because he must know that two years ago a committee had been appointed expressly to take this subject in to consideration; that voluminous reports had by it been made; and more than that, the noble marquis knew that he never himself took the trouble to attend one of its meetings. His noble friend had argued upon the resolutions as if they had been worded with the precision of an act of parliament, when he must be perfectly aware, that at his own suggestion they were introduced instead of a bill, as the ground upon which an enactment should be raised, after the foundation had been deliberately examined. In the first resolution he had chosen to insert a word that had no existence, and in objecting to its situation had forgotten that it ought to have precedence, since, until the grand question of the renewal of the charter was determined, the minor details could not be fitly discussed. The noble marquis had talked loudly of the dangers that were to be dreaded: he had endeavoured to frighten the house and the country into a compliance with his wishes: he had conjured up phantoms, with which he seemed to contend most valiantly, but those who beheld him were lost in astonishment at his vehement action, erected against objects they could not see; since if, indeed, they had being at all, is was only in the terrified imagination of the noble marquis. If he had taken the pains to read the correspondence on this subject with the directors, these airy nothings would never have tormented him; for what was their opinion? they saw no danger in the opening of the export trade, or from the efflux of adventurers connected with this part of the subject: their fear applied to the import trade from India; and if their authority were worth any thing, it was entirely opposed to that of their friend. The noble marquis might, perhaps, not be disposed to pay much attention to the sentiments of the present governor-general, and he would therefore quote the opinions of an individual, for whom (doubtless on good grounds) the noble marquis appeared to entertain a very high respect K 2 respect―he meant lord Wellesley, who, writing from India to the directors in 1800, used these words conclusive against his statement.of to-day "Your government can always with less difficulty control the operations of British than of foreign adventurers: the designs and attempts of foreigners must always be more dangerous than any consequences that could result from an increased resort of British subjects, under such limitations and restraints as your wisdom may frame."(Hear, hear! from marquis Wellesley)-how could these two discordant opinions be reconciled? In 1800, under proper regulations, nothing was to be apprehended in 1814, (when the charter was about to expire,) consequences that endangered not only India, but England, were to be dreaded. Did the noble marquis intend to argue, that American merchants ought to be allowed privileges that were denied to our own subjects? Were treaties to be formed with foreign powers, who were to be put upon the footing of the most favoured nations, and were Englishmen to be the only exception? were they to be excluded from advantages given to foreigners? That the house might see how important it was that the trade enjoyed by foreign nations should be devoted to our own countrymen, he would state the extent of it in 1806-7. It amounted to no less than 1,958,1057. and it could not be denied that even such an addition would afford a great relief to the mercantile interest. The exports of the company at the same time little exceeded one million. He admitted that great practical advantages ought not to be sacrificed to theoretical calculations, but here actual experience was called in aid of speculative policy. Could there be any reasonable objection to indivi、 duals of large property and respectable connections employing their capital in the trade to India? Was any danger to be apprehended even from the lower classes of merchants, who must be always under the control of the political authorities? His lordship then enlarged upon this part of the subject, and read several extracts from a report made upon the subject, to show that it was not probable that adventurers would penetrate into the interior from Calcutta, since that branch of the trade was always carried on by native merchants.The noble earl concluded by observing, that the commercial interests of the country ought to receive every privilege and advantage which they could wish for, provided such privileges did not interfere with the substantial rights of others. It was the duty of the legislature not to place the merchants of this country in a worse situation than foreigners, in trading to India. Lord Grenville said, whatever sentiments might be entertained on the subject now under their lordships' consideration, they must all feel obliged to his noble friend (the marquis of Wellesley) for the opportunity he had given them of discussing this question, before the period when they should come to a final vote. Now was the time when discussion and examination might be useful. If he felt grateful for such an opportunity for discussion, he felt more so for the light which the high official situation filled by his noble friend, and the distinguished part he acted in our Indian empire, enabled him to throw on the question. The noble earl who spoke last had satisfactorily explained one point, which, in the discussion out of doors, had been frequently lost sight of; that whatever rights might be conceded by former acts of parliament to the East India company, they were nowextinguished-they were granted for a time limited; that time was expired; and they were now about to legislate for the Indian empire, free and unlimited; bound by no previous plan, and fettered by no previous act of the legislature. Until he had seen the whole of the plan proposed by his majesty's government, of which an outline had only yet been laid be fore them, he felt a difficulty in making any general observations on the subject. He was not disposed to throw any difficulties in their way; but, on the contrary, inclined to afford them his most cordial and zealous assistance. He did not believe, however, and he should be happy to be convinced to the contrary, that the union of the two objects of political power and commercial undertakings in the East India company were compatible, in the degree which they imagined, with the existence of the single and unaided competition of the British merchant. Of this he was however convinced, that the liberal conduct adopted towards the merchants of foreign nations they could not deny to their own. This was an incontrovertible proposition; and they ought to keep in view, whether or not it might be practicable to reconcile with this principle the details of the plan of his majesty's government. One error appeared to him to run through the resolutions and the speech of the noble earl--the considering as principal that which was merely secondary, and as secondary that which was principal. The resolutions began by laying down the importance of preserving the privileges of the East India company, with certain exceptions. Whether it might be proper to keep up a commercial company which was said to carry on commerce at a loss, was surely a question which admitted of some doubt. The noble. earl desired them to agree to the necessity of keeping up this commercial company, for the sake of the government of India. It was the duty of their lordships to inquire, first, what was the nature of their situation? secondly, what were the duties of that situation? and then, what were the instruments by which those duties could most ef fectually be discharged? The resolutions were defective, and any act of parliament founded on them would be defective, which did not vindicate the right of the British crown to the government of India. His lordship went much at large into the policy of the government in India, and into the several regulations made by the company, both in this country and in the East. The command, he said, of the Indian army by the company could not, he felt, be withdrawn from that company, so long as it retained the political government of India; but this very command formed an additional argument against the connection of a great political with a commercial government. There was also a natural competition between the king's and the company's army in India, and he could not conceive how the evil was to be cured; for the only cure suggested, namely, the introduction of officers from the regular army into commands in the company's force, was liable to many objections, some of which the regular officers themselves must feel, particularly upon the subject of promotion and fame, K 3 com compared to the advantages belonging to the regular ary. It struck him that a peculiar system of mixed education should be established to prepare officers for the Indian army. Here the noble lord animadverted upon the system's of education adopted by the India company in this country and in India. Here they separated boys from all those connections which were calculated to encourage and promote the object which ought to be attended to-which might enable them to carry out to India the true British spirit that must attach them to their country-that would dispose them to maintain its interests and glory. On the contrary, the view of the directors appeared to be to pursue a course directly the reverse of that followed at all our great public schools,by withdrawing these boys from the society of their countrymen, to convert them, as it seemed, into a sort of separate cast; for such was the mischievous system of the establishment at Hertford, which ought to be extinguished. But the system pursued by the company in the college of Calcutta was equally objectionable. The ends to which the institution was convertible were quite defeated by a miserable spirit of parsimony. For the company,which derived a revenue of seven millions annually from India, refused to afford the necessary means for train ing up men in the science of governing that territory. For himself, he could not help declaring his suspicion as to the passive conduct of the board of control upon that refusal. The noble lord concluded with apologizing for the time he had occupied in expressing the doubts and difficulties he felt upon this important question,, which doubts and difficulties he had expressed without any personal mo tive, for indeed it was impossible that he should feel any, especially with regard to the public body more immediately alluded to in the discussion. The earl of Liverpool bore testimony to the candid manner in which the noble baron had treated the subject, his object obviously being to bring the question fairly and dispassionately under the consideration of the house, without any partiality or party feeling. For himself and his colleagues, the noble earl declared their readiness to attend to any suggestion thrown out by the noble baron, or by others, which might be calculated either to further their own plan, or to show its deficiency. Their main object was to promote the happiness of the people of India; and he was proud to feel that no people were governed with more judgement than they had been for the last thirty years. With regard to that people, the colonial system, which was notoriously founded upon a principle of monopoly, had long ceased. Indeed that system had ceased generally, a new æra having arisen in the world. Then, as the colonial principle could not be maintained, as foreigners could not be excluded from the commerce of this extensive territory, could there long ex ist a doubt in any unbiassed mind as to the general admission of our own merchants to a participation of that commerce? Yet upon this point a question had arisen. With respect to the assertion of the noble mover, that the trade of individual merchants could not be carried on at all under the proposed restrictions, and that of the noble baron, that such trade must be quite a losing pursuit, while the company combined, the political with the commercial character; the noble noble earl answered both by referring to the documents on the table, from which it appeared that the exports from India, within a certain year, by British private traders, were nearly equal to that of the India company; and the exports of the American traders bore a greater proportion still to those of the company, while a participation of this trade by any but the company was subject to still greater disadvantages than those deprecated by these two noble lords. He should not consider the system as complete, unless not merely the intercourse between India and this country was opened, but also between India and the whole of Asia, Africa, and America, that the British merchants might avail themselves of every advantage to be derived from this extended intercourse. With respect to South America, it was peculiarly desirable that some arrangement of this nature might be made. The present was a precious, golden opportunity; by seizing it, advantages might be gained, which, if not now made our own, might altogether, at a future period, elude our grasp. It was quite impossible to believe that an advantageous trade could not be carried on under these circumstances by our merchants. With respect to the China trade, he was prepared to maintain the expediency of excepting it from the proposed arrangement; it was now carried on advantageously by the East India company, and a revenue was securely derived from it. There were, besides, many circumstances to render it inexpedient to open the trade to China. It was better to retain a certain advantageous trade, and a certain revenue, than to exchange it for an uncertainty. His lordship concluded by expressing generally his firm and decided conviction of the advantages which would result from opening the India trade to the out-ports. The motion was put and negatived. In the house of commons, sir W. Scott moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of ecclesiastical courts in England, and for the more easy recovery of church-rates and tithes. The right hon. gentleman prefaced his motion with a few general observations on the state of these courts, on their history, and on the inconveniences which existed in their constitution. The object of his bill (which is the same lost by the late dissolution of parliament) was, to abolish excommunication generally, not only as a mean process, but as an ultimate sentence, except in cases of great offence. In these, he held that it would be impossible to do away with this power in the ecclesiastical courts, as every church must have the ability to exclude unworthy members from among them; and there were crimes (incest for example) which were not amenable to the common laws, and so destructive to society, that there must be a punishment of force enough to repress them. 'Another object of his bill would be, to lessen the number of minor courts which had the power of excommunicating; and lastly, to devise a more easy manner for the recovery of churchrates and tithes, the present mode of recovering small sums being oppressive, from the magnitude of the expense incurred. After a few words from Mr. D. Giddy, leave was given, and the bill was brought in and read a first time. It was ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on the 28th. K 4 April |