Mr. WHITE. For Wisconsin, approximately 1,730 acres; for Minnesota, 3,855 acres.

Mr. McGowAN. Did you make any appraisal of those selection areas in the two States?

Mr. WHITE. I did.

Mr. McGowAN. Just tell the committee how you went about that and what you found?

Mr. WHITE. First with Mr. C. A. Hoar, who is in the Forest Service, headquarters at Duluth, and who is familiar with that country, I made an extensive trip through several counties to get the general lay of the land. Together we cruised a few of the forties and made a general plan of work. We secured four other forest officers from the Minnesota and Superior Forest to assist us, and we worked two in a party, three parties.

The first and usually the hardest job was to locate the description, the forty, to find a section corner or what would answer for some known point in the section. That done, we crossed each forty twice, and every two and a half chains we would take a one-fourth acre circle and estimate all standing timber, make a list of all stumps we could find on the ground, and notice how long we thought they had been cut. From that we prepared an estimate of the timber. In this way we covered 10 per cent of the entire area.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, of the 5,200 acres?

Mr. WHITE. Yes; 5,585.

To estimate the standing timber-I don't know that I need to go into that.

Mr. McGOWAN. Just briefly, so that the record will show it. Mr. WHITE. We took the diameter at 412 feet from the ground, estimated the number of logs in a tree, calculated the average size of that timber and how many logs it will run to the thousand feet b. m., and from that we get our estimate for each quarter-acre circle and apply it to the entire area.

The stumps gave us a little different problem. From experience in pine timber we have learned that the diameter of the stump inside the bark is approximately equal to the diameter of the tree ouside the bark 42 feet from the ground, which is our usual measurement upon which we base our estimates.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you repeat that again?

Mr. WHITE. The diameter of the average pine stump inside the bark is equal to the diameter of the tree outside the bark, 42 feet from the ground, that we use in estimating.

The CHAIRMAN. The bark does not increase the diameter?

Mr. WHITE. It is offset by the taper. We go inside the bark at the stump, and that equals the diameter outside the bark at 42 feet above the ground. The taper takes care of that. The diameter outside the bark at 42 feet is the diameter measurement ordinarily used in cruising.

On these areas we could frequently find an old remnant of a tree on the ground that we could use for determining approximate merchantable length of the stand.

Mr. RAKER. The top of the tree?

Mr. WHITE. An old wind-fallen tree which we could measure, or in a few cases we could find the top in place. We took advantage

of all those things so that we could get the average run of merchantable lengths.

Mr. RAKER. Is that the ordinary method used when the Government proceeds in a suit to recover from those who have illegally cut timber from the public lands?

Mr. WHITE. It is.

Mr. McGOWAN. Then what did you do toward the fixing of a value for these lands that you examined, Mr. White?

Mr. WHITE. We made inquiries of every farmer in the vicinity of the value of his land, the going sales price, for similar land. We also made inquiries from cruisers or men who had been around there and had knowledge of the timber business at an early day as to stumpage rates at present and as far back as 1890. From these we prepared an average table of stumpage values for the different species of timber. The general average of "neighborhood values" of land we applied to the land we had examined, the raw land.

Mr. MCGOWAN. And that covered a total of 3,855 acres in Minnesota and 1,730 acres in Wisconsin?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. McGowan. Now, when you came to the fixing of the values, did you segregate them with reference to any particular dates? Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. McGOWAN. What were the dates that you tried to fix your values against, with reference to the selections that were made?

Mr. WHITE. Three particular points. First, the time some of this timber was cut, 25 or 30 years ago; second, at the end of 1907, when the Northern Pacific filings were mostly offered on these lands; and third, the present values.

Mr. KERR. Present values of what, the land or the timber?
Mr. WHITE. Both.

Mr. KERR. Of the timber which had been cut 25 years ago?
Mr. WHITE. The timber now standing.

Mr. McGowan. Will you state, then, Mr. White, what your conclusions were with reference to these tracts that you appraised? First, the value at the time they were selected by the Northern Pacific Railroad Co.; and second, the present values.

Mr. WHITE. It is a little hard to answer that question just in that form, because quite a good amount of this land has been sold by the Northern Pacific, and we took those values at the time of their sale, their sale prices.

Mr. McGowAN. Well, you may include those in your figures to the extent that they are applicable.

Mr. WHITE. For both States the Northern Pacific has sold 1,520 acres for a total value of $18,208. They have also sold 162 acres that we have a record of, but we could not find the selling price. So we include that with lands that they now own, because we have to fix an appraisal price on it. The value of the land they now own, for the land alone, is $25,166.

Mr. MCGOWAN. Mr. White, just for the purpose of clarity, I would like to get an answer into the record along these lines, if you can give it.

Taking all these factors into consideration, what was the present value per acre of the lands in Wisconsin and Minnesota?

Mr. WHITE. Just the land alone, $6.12 an acre.
Mr. McGowAN. That does not include the timber?

Mr. WHITE. That does not include the timber.

Mr. McGowan. Well, what would it be including the timber, if you know?

Mr. WHITE. It would be just a trifle less than $10 an acre, including the timber.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of timber is it?

Mr. WHITE. White pine, Norway pine, jack pine, a little cedar, some spruce, balsam, and a limited amount of hardwoods.

Mr. McGowan. Now, coming back to the time of the date of the filing of selections by the railroad company-and I think you said that was approximately 1907?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. He did not finish his answer there on the value of that timber now.

Mr. McGowan. All right; I will

moment.

Mr. RAKER. You got on the land. value of the timber.

The CHAIRMAN. $10 he said.

Mr. WHITE. That was per acre. would be $37,226.

withdraw the question for the

Now, you started right on the

The total value of the timber

The CHAIRMAN. By $10 you mean timber and land, inclusive? Mr. WHITE. Yes. This last figure that I give is for 9,823 acres of land that the Northern Pacific still owns and 162 acres that they have sold, and we do not know the price obtained.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they use this Bitter Root base to select this 5,500 acres?

Mr. WHITE. I believe it was not Bitter Root base they used in these particular lieu selections.

Mr. McGowan. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ade is going to follow Mr. White, and he will give you specifically all the information that you want on that with reference to each area that was selected, and he will also point out specifically the base that was used.

Now, I don't know that I am quite clear on this yet, Mr. White. Take the total acreage that you covered in Minnesota and Wisconsin, what was the total per acre value of those tracts at the time that you made your examination?

Mr. WHITE. A little less than $10 an acre, $9.93.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the value at the time the Northern Pacific made its selections?

Mr. McGowan. I was just going to ask him that, Judge.

Mr. WHITE. The total land value for 1907 was $15,246; the total timber value was around $18,000.

Mr. McGowAN. What would that be on a per acreage basis, taking the whole thing?

Mr. WHITE. $6.05 an acre.

Mr. RAKER. Who stole this timber?

Mr. WHITE. Well, in some cases we have information and some cases we do not.

Mr. RAKER. Well, tell us what you know about it.

Mr. WHITE. As early as 1881 the Northern Pacific offered filing on some of this land in Minnesota. We looked up the majority of it. I could not find out from the land office at Duluth the history

39564-25-PT 4- -6

of the transaction-they said they did not understand what had happened, but there had been contests, suits, etc., for a great many years, and finally there was a new filing offered in 1907. We have information in a few cases where the Northern Pacific sold this land, or sold this timber on the land in the nineties. In section 19, township 55 north, range 12 west, in Minnesota, they sold a block of about 52 acres to Billy O'Brien in the nineties for about $2 a thousand, and he cut the timber.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by "they made a filing?" By virtue of what act?

Mr. WHITE. I don't understand all of that. I could not figure it out, but this last filing was in connection with this particular base that we have here.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean they undertook to select them as lieu lands?

Mr. WHITE. I don't know what that first was. I could not find out, and I am not advised yet just what that was.

Mr. RAKER. Those first filings were when?

Mr. WHITE. As early as 1881.

Mr. RAKER. What was your information as to whether or not they, during the space of time from 1881 up to the time that they made the new filing, as to who had possession and claimed the lands?

Mr. WHITE. Well, I think in the ninetjes, I think it was believedthe Northern Pacific claimed, because it is of record-not a record, but information of a few sales-they claimed it.

Mr. RAKER. Now, tell us, they sold some of this timber for $2 a thousand; what was your estimate on this whole tract of land, five thousand and some odd acres, of the amount of timber that has been removed from it?

Mr. WHITE. The total value of timber cut before filing, as of 1907, was $7,415. That involves quite a large amount of timber, but stumpage prices in those days were low compared with present prices.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you ascertain the cut before 1907?

Mr. WHITE. From the condition of the stumps, the degree of decay; in other places, the age of the young growth which had come up, and from inquiry among cruisers and people living in that region.

Mr. RAKER. That would be taking what amount per thousand in between 1880 and 1897?

Mr. WHITE. The price then was $1.25 to $2 a thousand feet b. m. Mr. RAKER. What is it worth now through that country a thousand?

Mr. WHITE. Well, a moderate price would be about $10 or $12 a thousand.

Mr. RAKER. Over that territory?

Mr. WHITE. Yes. It has sold in that territory for as high as $25 a thousand for stumpage, but that is exceptional.

Mr. McGowAN. Mr. White, with reference to those 1881 filings

Mr. RAKER (interposing). Just let me finish this one question, Mr. McGowan. Is it not a fact that this kind of timber is almost exhausted in those States?

Mr. WHITE. It is.

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about white pine?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Some one was telling me the other day that over in Michigan they were getting some lumber from these two States and Michigan-they have an eight or ten million dollar building, and the contractor called for this white pine for finishing lumber, and they were unable to get it in the three States. So I just wondered whether or not it was very scarce.

Mr. WHITE. I saw no virgin stands of white pine in all my work there. I heard of them, but I did not see any.

Mr. McGOWAN. Mr. White, with reference to those 1881 filings, as you call them, that developed in connection with your work after you got back there on the ground, did it not, the ascertainment of the fact that filings had previously been made?

Mr. WHITE. I never heard of it before until I went to the land office in Duluth to look up the records.

Mr. McGowAN. And for lack of time you did not have an opportunity to go into the 1881 filings fully?

Mr. WHITE. Well, I could not in that office. They told me I would have to go to Washington.

Mr. McGowan. And if it is a fact-we do not yet know it to be a fact-but if it is a fact that the Northern Pacific sold those lands and got the price for the lumber off of them, that would also be an additional value that would in reality have to be added to the figures you have heretofore given?

Mr. WHITE. Yes. There is still another value I have not included.

After the filing of 1907 and prior to the sale of these lands by the Northern Pacific, there has also been timber cut, and the value of that timber is $5.007.

Mr. McGOWAN. And what would that be on an acreage basisthat is, applying it against the whole block?

Mr. WHITE. A trifle less than a dollar an acre.

Mr. McGowan. That dollar would be added where, to the figure you have given?

Mr. WHITE. To the $10. Then this other figure of $7,415 for timber cut prior to 1907 added makes it slightly over $12-$12.15 an

acre.

Mr. McGowan. Now, when you completed your examinations, did you submit your reports to the district forester; and he in turn turned them over to Mr. Ade to be included with his compilation concerning the remainder of the selections that were made with reference to mineral classification, if you know?

Mr. WHITE. I did.

Mr. McGowan. And your figures were so handled?

Mr. WHITE. Yes. I assisted and spent one or two days putting the reports together, connecting it up.

Mr. McGowan. In other words, your figures were to be used as a part of the report Mr. Ade was to make on the larger tract of land? Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Is there any virgin forest at all in those two States? I just wanted to get that for information.

Mr. WHITE. Yes; I heard there is a limited amount.