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Mr. MORSE. That would be the logical place to put it. It could be done cooperatively. It would be simpler to place the whole land under the Forest Service, of course, but logically it should be under the Fish and Wildlife.

Senator NEUBERGER. And the Fish and Wildlife Service does have other responsibilities, not in that immediate area, but in the Malheur refuge and in some areas not too far from there, is that not correct?

Mr. MORSE. That is correct. They have substantial responsibilities in the Klamath Basin and could administer a refuge on Klamath Marsh as cheaply as any in the country by pooling equipment and personnel.

Senator NEUBERGER. Our subcommittee, with the legislative interim committee, visited the marsh yesterday, and, of course, we were extremely impressed with the magnificent sweep of swamp and feeding and breeding grounds for the ducks and geese that travel the flyway, and we saw some of the birds, even though this is not a particularly numerous season for them, on the marsh. But there was some controversy and discussion at our meeting in Klamath Falls about the question of shooting and how extensive it should be on the marsh, and there was a little bit of very friendly difference of opinion between some of the witnesses and the subcommittee chairman. I would just like to have you•discuss that, if you could, from your experience in waterfowl management.

Mr. MORSE. What type of shooting did you have in mind, Senator? Senator NEUBERGER. Did the witnesses have in mind, Mr. Morse? There was feeling on the part of some witnesses, and I want Mr. Wolf and Mr. Gamble to correct me on this if I am mistaken, there was a feeling on the part of some of the witnesses that when the marsh is acquired, or should the marsh be acquired by the Fish and Wildlife Service, that there should be a degree of shooting permitted. Several of the witnesses disagreed as to what extent, but several brought up the fact that there should be. Now, I would just like to ask you


could inform us for the record of what you conceive to be advisable practice in that respect, and what is the tendency and what are regulations now with respect to refuges that are under the United States Fish and Wildlife Service regarding shooting.

Mr. MORSE. Well, I believe if Klamath Marsh became a portion of the Federal refuge system, control of any hunting would fall under the jurisdiction of the proper agency, the Fish and Wildlife Service. This shooting is handled on the various refuges now in a flexible manner. It varies from refuge to refuge. Many are completely closed, depending upon the supply of birds, both in the Nation and in the particular flyway at any given time, the extent of it. It is really a relatively new proposition. The permitted hunting has been allowed, I believe, just since World War II on some of the refuges, depending on how the land was acquired. There might be complications on hunting on land acquired with duck stamp money. That has been the case on some refuges, but it should be a flexible thing just like the allowable timber cut.

Senator NEUBERGER. Do you think any restrictions should be written in the bill or it should be left up purely to administrative practices of the Fish and Wildlife Service?

Mr. MORSE. I believe that the aims could be best accomplished by leaving it to administrative practices. Certainly they wouldn't allow


it to be overshot. I might point out that this marsh freezes rather early compared with many others throughout southeastern Oregon, and even at the best could provide limited

hunting compared with the others.

Senator NEUBERGER. It has been my impression, and I myself am not a hunter, although I have been out with a lot of friends who do go hunting, it has been my impression that on no refuges at all do they allow shooting as the birds come in to land on a protected area, or to take off from a protected area after they have immediately been on the water or in the reeds. Now, I may be wrong about that, and we are going to try to get the exact regulations of the Fish and Wildlife Service in that respect. But if you have any thoughts at all as to how this specifically should be administered by the Fish and Wildlife Service, particularly with respect to shooting or whether it should be closed to shooting, we would value your submitting an auxiliary statement on that.

Mr. MORSE. We can do that, Senator; however, I think the Fish and Wildlife Service are the agency to determine when, where, and if shooting is to be permitted, and they certainly have been under a great deal of pressure in some areas that they have not yielded to, You know that as well as I do.

Senator NEUBERGER. I know they have, and, I think, in a few California areas they did yield, if I am not mistaken, and there was a good deal of controversy over that, and that is why I have put this discussion with you on the record so that, should the bill pass, the Wildlife Service will be informed that this has already been a subject of discussion and some controversy in the area. Have you any questions?

Mr. GAMBLE. Mr. Morse, what is the percentage or the extent to which this particular 17,000 acres of marshland which you have alluded to, what percentage is it of the marsh areas in the general Klamath Basin area? What I am really getting at is how much of a contribution is it making?

Mr. MORSE. It is making a very substantial one. The percentage, I don't have the figures available. I could get them for you. I am sure the Fish and Wildlife Service regional office here in Portland has them right now. But throughout the Klamath Basin there is a constant diminishing of marshland for waterfowl. The marshes along upper Klamath Lake, for example, constant reclamation projects, both by the Bureau and private individuals, are reducing the acreage each year. The State of Oregon has purchased a number of tracts of small marshes along that lake to safeguard it and allow it to remain as marsh. It isn't an entirely Federal show in the Klamath Basin any more.

Mr. GAMBLE. I asked the question because at the meeting in Klamath Falls the other day, Senator, I believe there were 2 or 3 witnesses who testified that they thought that the value of this area would be enhanced if the marsh were drained and the land converted into pasture or into some other

crop. Mr. MORSE. Well, I don't believe any individual or organization interested in wildlife would concur with that. The altitude of this marsh is around 4,500 feet, and, as I say, the climate is rather severe. There is little, if any, grain grown in it, and there is no probability of a commercial grain-growing enterprise as there is lower down in the

basin. If it were converted to anything, it would undoubtedly be wet pastureland, and the soil is very light in the marsh itself. It would be a problem on pumice soil.

Mr. GAMBLE. I noticed that in your statement you mentioned that, if the marsh were drained, it would become second-rate grazing land. Mr. Morse. Well, it would be very seasonal, sir. In other words, it

MORSE freezes up very early and it would, in my estimation, not be nearly as good as grazing land as that

Mr. GAMBLE. As the contiguous land?

Mr. MORSE. As the contiguous land is now, for the simple reason that that water has to go someplace.

Mr. GAMBLE. That is all I have.
Senator NEUBERGER. Mr. Wolf, do you have a question?

Mr. WOLF. Yes; I do. You presented these pictures on the Aztec lands. Is this correct; that was approximately 96,000 acres of land?

Mr. MORSE. I believe that was.

Mr. WOLF. A half billion feet of timber and a checkerboard ownership?

Mr. MORSE. A checkerboard ownership.
Mr. Wolf. The first picture shows a heavily cut area?
Mr. MORSE. That is right.

Mr. WOLF. And the second picture shows cutting on additional Aztec land to a lighter degree, about 60 percent?

Mr. MORSE. That is right.
Mr. WOLF. Were both of these cuttings made by the same company?
Mr. MORSE. No. They weren't.
Mr. WOLF. They were not!
Mr. MORSE. They were not.
Mr. WOLF. Who made the cutting, the one with the lighter cut?
Mr. MORSE. Southwest Lumber Co.
Senator NEUBERGER. Do you want to identify that by number?
Mr. WOLF. The 60-percent cut is on Southwest?

Mr. MORSE. That was on the Southwest cutting on the Coconino Forest.

Mr. WOLF. They bought the majority of that?
Mr. MORSE. They bought the majority of the land.

Mr. Wolf. This was bought by some other people, the completely cutover area?

Mr. MORSE. That is correct. I may be in error on this; I didn't bring my notebook. I thing that is Winslow Co., and it was purchased by them from Southwest.

Mr. WOLF. From Southwest ?
Mr. MORSE. Yes. Several small sections in the forest.

Mr. WOLF. The Forest Service, you say, has a working agreement with the Southwest Lumber Co.?

Mr. MORSE. That is correct. They mark the timber for cutting.

Mr. WOLF. They mark it whatever way the Southwest Lumber Co. wants it marked ?

Mr. MORSE. That is correct. They have a contract with them.
Mr. WOLF. There is no sustained-yield covenant involved here?

Mr. MORSE. No; not on those particular lands, or on any in the area, that I know of.

Mr. WOLF. Is this picture showing a 60-percent cut the type which is generally being followed by the Southwest Lumber Co.?

Mr. MORSE. On those lands that they have cut to date. I was so informed.

Mr. WOLF. If they chose to vary it, they could, if they wanted to liquidate their timber?

Mr. MORSE. They certainly can.
Mr. WOLF. Thank you.

Senator NEUBERGER. Thank you, Mr. Morse, very much for coming here. We appreciate it. We will stand in recess until 2 o'clock today.

(Whereupon the hearing recessed at 12:30 p. m., reconvening at 2 p. m., of said day.)


Senator NEUBERGER. Please come to order. Before we start our afternoon session, the Chair wants to add to a brief announcement made this morning following Mr. Weyerhaeuser's very interesting testimony. I said I would give the two groups of Klamath Indians who appeared before us in Klamath Falls an opportunity if they desired it to comment on Mr. Weyerhaeuser's proposal. At that time I mentioned Mr. Wade Crawford and Mr. Boyd Jackson. It is now my understanding that Delford Lang and other members of the Klamath tribal executive committee are in the hearing room in addition to Mr. Jackson, so after we have heard the other witnesses I am going to ask Mr. Crawford if he cares to comment on Mr. Weyerhaeuser's proposal, and then instead of having Mr. Jackson alone, I am going suggest that Mr. Delford Lang bring Mr. Jackson and the other members of the executive committee who are here with him


to the hearing table and they can testify individually or together or as they see fit. I just wish to correct that because I now note that there are other members such as Mr. Kirk, and Mr. Cook, and other members of the tribal council here in addition to Mr. Jackson.

Our next witness of this afternoon is Mr. Norbert Leupold, representing the Audubon Society. Is he here at the present time!

Then we will hear Mrs. Martha Ann Platt, who, as I understand it, is a member of the Audubon Society but will appear today for the Mazamas.



Mrs. Platt. Mr. Chairman, members of the congressional Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, I feel it is a privilege to be able to make this statement before you.

My name is Martha Ann Platt, my address is 2738 Northeast 14th Avenue, Portland, Oreg., and I am chairman of the Conservation Committee of the Mazamas, a 63-year-old mountaineering club of Oregon with a membership of over 1,100. This statement is made because we are deeply interested in sound conservation practices that preserve and protect our natural resources.

Specifically we refer to Public Laws 587, 83d Congress, and No. 132, 85th Congress, which provide for the termination in 1960 of Federal supervision over the trust and restricted property of the Klamath Tribe of Indians and for the termination of Federal services to such Indians.

We are concerned because we approve of the present sound timber management on a sustained-yield basis which results in an orderly harvest. We have admired this fine Indian timber from the summits of Mount Scott and Mount Thielsen. Some of it in the Yamsey Butte area goes up to about 8,000 feet elevation and represents a particularly fine virgin stand. Fire prevention and erosion dangers have been considerations in the present Indian service management, and the reforestating of burned areas is contemplated when funds are available.

In order to expedite the sale of these lands, the reservation is being blocked out in units. No large companies have been interested in purchasing the entire reservation or large portions of it. Small operators are interested in purchasing the timberlands but it is expected that they will need to realize on their investment by cutting the timber as soon as possible. The prospect of the lumber market being glutted as the result of these sales is a real fear of the lumber industry, and we all feel the effects of an upset in the economy of the State. Another problem will be that these lands will probably be clear cut in order to realize the most return from their purchase. Under this sort of pressure, there isn't apt to be much regard for location of logging roads for sound erosion control and watershed protection nor reforestation program considered. There is no incentive for any policy but cut and get out.

We are also concerned as conservationists about the disposition of the upper Klamath Marsh, now an extremely valuable natural feeding and resting place for migratory waterfowl. Marshes such as this are rare, not only in Oregon, but in the Nation. There have been many national examples of wetlands drained for crop use, with the belated realization that the primary and highest value was for waterfowl use. Then followed the expensive and extensive restoration process over a period of years. Here in the upper Klamath Marsh we have a functioning habitat that with very little management, perhaps only grazing control, could be brought into great capacity. It is a fascinating place to visit anytime, but at certain seasons it is literally teeming with waterfowl, a thrilling and inspiring sight.

Ideally, these Indian lands should be under Government ownership and management, either on a State basis by the Oregon States Forestry Department and the State game commission, but preferably by the United States Forest Service (the Indian timber adjoins the Fremont National Forest) and the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. However, there are legal and financial obstacles that must be overcome before such acquisition and supervision could be achieved. These procedures would take considerable time, congressional and legislative bodies must study, consider, draft enabling laws, educate their members and then enact these laws. If the agencies involved have to build reserves through regular or special appropriations or by other revenue sources to pay the purchase cost, this also would take time. This huge and important project encompasses not only the financial obligation to the Klamath Indians, the timber economy of Oregon, but also the wise use and protection of precious natural resources. However, the Secretary of the Interior is ordered to perform the termination act by 1960, and a big majority of the Klamath Indians want to take their share in a lump sum and leave the reservation. So the present plan is

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