sit around the table with the Klamath Indians you would get the fair, honest opinion of what these people want, and I go along with Mr. Crawford, let's have a referendum; stop all this nonsense. Thank you very much.

Senator NEUBERGER. Are there any other members of the Klamath Tribe who very briefly feel that they should communicate their views to the subcommittee and for the record? Would you like to be heard, sir?

Mr. ROBBINS. Well, I would like to be given a fair chance as well as some of the others. I don't want to have 5 minutes or 5 hours, but I would like to be heard.

Senator NEUBERGER. Well, we are about to conclude the hearing. We can give you a few minutes. Most people who wanted to be heard made a request to the committee and we put their names on the agenda, but if you would like to be heard and think you can do so briefly, we would be glad to have you come up. Would you give your name, please?

Mr. ROBBINS. I would rather have it brief tomorrow morning, perhaps 10 or 15 minutes tomorrow. All these other people here in attendance, it has pretty well used up today.

Senator NEUBERGER. We are going out on the reservation tomorrow to look over some of these assets, but I must ask you to identify yourself so we will know how to identify you for the recording clerk when he is taking down your testimony.

STATEMENT OF HYRUM R. ROBBINS, MEMBER OF THE KLAMATH TRIBE

Mr. ROBBINS. My name is Hyrum R. Robbins; I am an enrolled member of the Klamath Tribe. Modoc.

Senator NEUBERGER. Won't you sit down, Mr. Robbins, and give your views briefly?

Mr. ROBBINS. First I will mention the fact that the reason I didn't write in, this is of vital interest to me and I have never had to write in before to talk about my own affairs, and I didn't think I would do so this time.

Senator NEUBERGER. How do you think we would make up an agenda for people to appear if they didn't write in to us?

Mr. ROBBINS. I was coming to that, sir. If other people are more interested in this and the time limits you to a certain amount, I would rather the other people had their say and I would forfeit mine. That is the reason.

Senator NEUBERGER. Well, we would be glad to hear you now. Mr. ROBBINS. I am the man that opposed Public Law 587, at the Klamath Agency Auditorium, and I am the fellow that told Commissioner Glenn Emmons to his face there that only repeal of Public Law 587 would suffice.

Some of the people condemned me. There were different opinions, I guess, expressed, none of them audibly to me, but through rumors that came back.

I also opposed legislation down here at the chamber of commerce to the effect bringing on Public Law 587. I believe one of the representatives here today, Mr. Ganong, in fact, wasn't aware too much

of what was going on, he said. Mr. Seismore was chairman of that committee that I referred to over here at the chamber building. The hearing that we had there, meeting. So it goes.

I am still opposed to Public Law 587 and, of course, to any amendments with it. It has been stated it is a fact that it is law. But the Klamath Tribe and myself especially have never been represented in any place to have such a law passed. We have no representatives, neither county, State, nor Federal.

I believe it is an injustice, in fact I know it is, having to live with it, of having our assets and things disposed of as it is presumed to be up there now. We will get back to the old saying or the old way of living is if you are going to be eaten it doesn't matter much whether the wolf eats you, or the lamb eats you, or who eats you, you will be eaten anyway.

We have all heard testimony today to the fact that some of the gun clubs want a little sweep of it; some of the reclamation boys want a sweep of it; everybody wants a sweep of it, but the Indian person that is affiliated with it and is supposed to own it and have his say, he doesn't have any part of it.

And, Mr. Senator, I would state for the record there, you asked someone today to try to explain to you why this law was passed and the changes made without anybody being aware of it, seemingly anyone being aware of it. I happen to know first hand that this law was assembled, the final stages of it were assembled, within near 50 days and not more than 60 days. The minutes were assembled and the thing was put through and drafted into law on October 13, 1954. They were laying scattered about some people's desks, as our papers are here today, on around June the 20th, minutes of the hearings, a transcript had never been made of it, never been completed; they were in shorthand yet. So it would only need searching of the record, or whatever you must do, to find how these things are assembled to find out that this bill was railroaded through.

Why, I am not prepared to say; I don't know. I am not that well versed, but I do know that they were laying on the desk on June the 20th; August the 13th, midnight, it was law.

This whole bill, whole Public Law 587, came to a head on the fact that there was some practice of mismanagement on the Klamath Reservation. It wasn't entirely to blame on one set of people like the forestry or the Indians or other individuals. It was just something that wasn't ironed out. So in order to get away from this bad management, people took any out they could to get out from under, they thought, bondage.

For myself, I have never felt I was under bondage. I own a little piece of the country up there, bought with blood, not with money.

Senator NEUBERGER. Mr. Robbins, we appreciate having your views. We have tried to have a wide range of opinions here today, because the only kind of a record that will be of any value is all the bona fide opinions that care to be expressed in this community. We appreciate your coming.

Mr. WOLF. What would you suggest be done now that Public Law 587 is law? Would you amend it, repeal it, or leave it stand?

Mr. ROBBINS. After considerable research, I would suggest that a modification be added to it in this way: giving the tribal members

privileges and chances to better their condition through self-management.

Mr. WOLF. In other words, if this trustee plan of the Management Specialists were to go into effect, you would want to eventually have the Indians themselves take over the management of that property within a stated period?

Mr. ROBBINS. What is your name, sir?

Mr. WOLF. Mr. Wolf.

Mr. ROBBINS. Mr. Wolf, I am not prepared to say about the trusteeship program that is advocated, but again I get back to the fact that I believe the Klamath tribal Indians, or tribe of Indians, can manage as well as anyone, and it is their resource and it can't be dissipated more than what the people here, that is lumbering industry any other things, commodities that are going to buy this stuff can stand. The only difference being in self-management plan and other utilities that might be set up is that these people should have that much right to use, and a privilege to try and use their knowledge, if any, or their education, if any, or their handling of business. It is their property and I think it is rather far along to ask complete repeal. There have been considerable changes made. But it isn't too far along to have this modification.

Mr. WOLF. Thank you.

Senator NEUBERGER. Thank you very much, Mr. Robbins, I appreciate your coming.

Before we conclude, I want to express my gratitude to everybody who has come here today. I recognize that all the views have not been my own particular philosophy regarding this legislation. The hearing record, as I said earlier, will be considered by the subcommittee, by the full Interior Committee, and by the United States Senate.

I think I warned the people who agree with me in general on S. 2047, although we may all feel that there should be amendments, and I feel there should be amendments now, I warned that it will be a difficult piece of legislation to enact under the most favorable circumstances.

I believe that we need something which will stabalize the handling of this timber and will protect the natural resources involved such as wildlife and forests and so on. At the same time, I think fully that the Indians are entitled to the maximum possible price, and it is in this manner in which the legislation was drafted.

I want to particularly thank the members of the legislative interim committee for coming here. I am sure they agree with me that this is not only a difficult problem but it is a very crucial and important problem to this area and our whole State. I trust that the members of the interim committee will be able to be my guests at breakfast tomorrow morning at 7:30, if that is not too early an hour. I can tell by their smiles that it is not. Thank you so much for coming.

I want to say in conclusion that the hearing record will be kept open until approximately November 1, 1957. If anybody has any statement to submit with any bona fide viewpoint on S. 2047 and collateral issues, I hope they will send it to Mr. James Gamble, the clerk of the Senate Indian Affairs Subcommittee, at room 224, Senate Office Building, Washington 25, D. C. We will be pleased to have

your views, and provided they are not too voluminous in length, they will be included in full in the hearing record, and I urge any of you who have a bona fide and legitimate viewpoint on this to submit those views to us.

We are going to spend tomorrow trying to look at some of these resources and areas which we have been discussing today, and we will stand in formal recess until 10 a. m. Friday, October 4, at the Multnomah County Courthouse, in Portland, Oreg.

(Whereupon, the hearing recessed at 6:20 p. m.)

AMENDMENTS TO THE KLAMATH TERMINATION ACT

OF 1954

OCTOBER 4, 1957

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS OF THE

COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS,

Portland, Oreg.

Pursuant to recess at Klamath Falls, Oreg., on Ocotober 2, 1957, the hearing convened at 10 a. m., Friday, October 4, 1957, at room 401, Multnomah County courthouse, Portland, Oreg., Senator Richard L. Neuberger presiding.

Also present: Mr. James Gamble, chief clerk, Subcommittee on Indian Affairs; Mr. Robert Wolf, forester, Subcommittee on Indian Affairs; and Mr. Earle Wilcox, forester, Management Specialists.

Senator NEUBERGER. Will the subcommittee hearing please come to order? The Chair would like to make a brief statement before we have the first witness of the morning.

There has been some comment in the press as to why only one Senator is present, and I believe that some explanation should be made of that. As you realize, we have just come through what is probably the longest peacetime session that Congress has held in many decades, if not in modern times. The Senate was particularly busy, because the last 8 or 10 weeks were involved in very late, or even around-theclock sessions on the civil-rights bill. Therefore, most of my colleagues are trying at this time to get a much-needed and much-deserved rest.

However, this subcommittee hearing, with the chairman of the subcommittee present, was authorized by all the members of the Senate Indian Affairs Subcommittee. We in Oregon must realize that, at least to a good many Senators from the other 47 States, this appears to be a problem involving only 1 State. I do not believe that is true, because the welfare of our Indians is the problem of all 48 States. However, the fact remains that the other members of the Indian Affairs Subcommittee, both Democratic and Republican, felt that their purpose and their interest would be served if we obtained in the State of Oregon a complete hearing record on this very urgent question. Therefore, the hearing record which we have obtained at Klamath Falls, and which will be obtained today at Portland, is, to all intents and purposes, what may very substantially determine the fate of this bill.

The bill I refer to is S. 2047 to provide for the acquisition by the United States of all tribal lands of the Klamath Tribe of Indians. Because the hearing record may well determine the destiny of this bill, it undoubtedly will have the determining and final effect on the disposition of the resources and assets of the Klamath Indians. Thus,