ference with the majority of this house. But which furnished their contingent, upon the imas the reasons for that difference are my apol-portation of your manufactures, you know you ogy for thus troubling you, suffer me to state them in a very few words. I shall compress them in as small a body as I possibly can, having already debated that matter at large, when the question was before the committee. First then, I cannot admit that proposition of a ransom by auction-because it is a mere project. It is a thing new, unheard of, supported by no experience, justified by no analogy, without example of our ancestors, or root in the constitution. It is neither regular parliamentary taxation, nor colony grant. Experimentum in corpore vile, is a good rule, which will ever make me adverse to any trial of experiments on what is certainly the most valuable of all subjects, the peace of this empire. Secondly, it is an experiment which must be fatal, in the end, to our constitution. For what is it but a scheme for taxing the colonies in the antechamber of the noble lord and his successors? To settle the quotas and proportions in this house is clearly impossible. You, sir, may flatter yourself, you shall sit a state auctioneer, with your hammer in your hand, and knock down to each colony as it bids. But to settle (on the plan laid down by the noble lord) the true proportioned payment for four or five and twenty governments, according to the absolute and relative wealth of each, and according to the British proportion of wealth and burthen, is a wild and chimerical notion. This new taxation must therefore come in by the back door of the constitution. Each quota must be brought to this house ready formed; you can neither add nor alter. You must register it. You can do nothing farther. For on what grounds can you deliberate, either before or after the proposition? You cannot hear the council for all these provinces quarrelling each on its own quantity of payment, and its proportion to others. If you should attempt it, the committee of the provincial ways and means, or by whatever other name it will delight to be called, must swallow up all the time of parliament. Thirdly, it does not give satisfaction to the complaint of the colonies. They complain that they are taxed without their consent; you answer, that you will fix the sum at which they shall be taxed. That is, you give them the very grievance for the remedy. You tell them, indeed, that you will leave the mode to them selves. I really beg pardon-it gives me pain to mention it--but you must be sensible that you will not perform this part of the compact. For, suppose the colonies were to lay the duties, would never suffer such a tax to be laid. You know too, that you would not suffer many other modes of taxation. So that, when you come to explain yourself, it will be found that you will neither leave to themselves the quantum, nor the mode, nor indeed anything. The whole is delusion from one end to the other. Fourthly, this method of ransom by auction (unless it be universally accepted) will plunge you into great and inextricable difficulties. In what year of our Lord are the proportions of payments to be settled? To say nothing of the impossibility, that colony agents should have general powers of taxing the colonies at their discretion, consider, I implore you, that the communication, by special messages and orders, between these agents and their constituents, on each variation of the case, when the parties come to contend together, and to dispute on their relative proportions, will be a matter of delay, perplexity, and confusion that can never have an end. If all the colonies do not appear at the outcry, what is the condition of those assemblies who offer, by themselves or their agents, to tax themselves up to your ideas of their proportion? The refractory colonies, who refuse all composition, will remain taxed only to your old impositions; which, however grievous in principle, are trifling as to production. The obedient colonies in this scheme are heavily taxed. The refractory remain unburthened. What will you do? Will you lay new and heavier taxes by parliament on the disobedient? Pray consider, in what way can you do it? You are perfectly convinced that in the way of taxing you can do nothing but at the ports. Now suppose it is Virginia that refuses to appear at your auction, while Maryland and North Carolina bid handsomely for their ransom, and are taxed to your quota? How will you put these colonies on a par? Will you tax the tobacco of Virginia? If you do, you give it its dead wound to your English revenue at home, and to one of the very greatest articles of your own foreign trade. If you tax the import of that rebellious colony, what do you tax but your own manufactures, or the goods of some other obedient, and already well taxed colony? Who has said one word on this labyrinth of detail, which bewilders you more and more as you enter into it? Who has presented, who can present you with a clew to lead you out of it? I think, sir, it is impossible that you should not recollect that the colony bounds are so implicated in one another (you know it by your other ex periments in the bill for prohibiting the New | This is found by experience effectual for its England fishery) that you can lay no possible purposes; the other is a new object. This is restraint on almost any of them, which may universal, the other calculated for certain colonot be presently eluded, if you do not confound nies only. This is immediate in its conciliatory the innocent with the guilty, and burthen those operation; the other remote, contingent, full whom upon every principle you ought to exon- of hazard. Mine is what becomes the dignity erate. He must be grossly ignorant of Ameri- of a ruling people ; gratuitous, unconditional, ca, who thinks that, without falling into this and not held out as a matter of bargain and confusion of all rules of equity and policy, you sale. I have done my duty in proposing it to can restrain any single colony, especially Vir- you. I have indeed tired you by a long disginia and Maryland, the central and most course; but this is the misfortune of those to important of them all. whose influence nothing will be conceded, and who must win every inch of their ground by argument. You have heard me with goodness; may you decide with wisdom ! for my part, I feel my mind greatly disburthened, by what I have done to day. I have been the less fearful of trying your patience, because, on this subject, I mean to spare it altogether in future. I have this comfort, that in every stage of the American affairs, I have steadily opposed the measures that have produced the confusion, and may bring on the destruction of this empire. I now go so far as to require a proposal of my own. If I cannot give peace to my country, I give it my conscience. Let it also be considered, that either in the present confusion you settle a permanent contingent, which will and must be trifling, (and | then you have no effectual revenue,) or you change the quota at every exigency, and then on every new requisition you will have a new quarrel. Reflect besides, that when you have fixed a quota for every colony, you have not provided for prompt and punctual payment. Suppose one, two, five, ten years' arrears. You cannot | issue a treasury extent against the failing colony. You must make new Boston port bills, new restraining laws, new acts for dragging men to England for trial. You must send out new But what (says the financier) is peace to us fleets, new armies. All is to begin again. | without money? Your plan gives us no revenue. From this day forward the empire is never to No! But it does-for it secures to the subknow an hour's tranquility. An intestine fireject the power of REFUSAL: the first of all will be kept alive in the bowels of the colonies, which one time or other must consume this whole empire. I allow indeed that the empire of Germany raises her revenue and her troops by quotas and contingents; but the revenue of the empire, and the army of the empire is the worst revenue and the worst army in the world. revenues.-Experience is a cheat, and fact a liar, if this power in the subject of proportioning his grant, or of not granting at all, has not been found the richest mine of revenue ever discovered by the skill or by the fortune of man. It does not indeed vote you one hundred and fifty-two thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds eleven shillings and twopence three farthings, nor any other paltry limited sum. But it gives the strong box itself, the fund, the bank from whence only revenues can arise among a people sensible of freedom: Posita luditur arca. Cannot you in England, cannot you at this time of day; cannot you (an house of commons) trust to the principle which has raised so mighty a revenue, and accumulated a debt of near one hundred and forty millions in this country! Is this principle to be true in England, and false every where else? Is it not true in Ireland? Has it not hitherto been true in the colonies? Why should you presume. that in any country a body, duly constituted for any function, will neglect to perform its duty, and abdicate its trust? Such a presumption would go against all government, in all modes. Compare the two. This I offer to give you | But, in truth, this dread of penury of supply, is plain and simple; the other full of perplexed from a free assembly, has no foundation in naand intricate mazes. This is mild, that harsh. | ture. For, first observe, that besides the desire Instead of a standing revenue, you will therefore have a perpetual quarrel. Indeed, the noble lord, who proposed this project of a ransom by auction, seemed himself to be of that opinion. His project was rather designed for breaking the union of the colonies, than for establishing a revenue. He confessed, he apprehended, that his proposal would not be to their taste. I say, this scheme of disunion seems to be at the bottom of the project; for I will not suspect that the noble lord meant nothing but merely to delude the nation by an airy phantom, which he never intended to realize. But whatever his views may be, as I propose the peace and union of the colonies as the very foundation of my plan, it cannot with one, whose foundation is perpetual, descend. these objects, which you tax at home, she has performed her part to the British revenue. But with regard to her own internal establishments, she may, I do not doubt she will, contribute in moderation, I say in moderation; for she ought not to be permitted to exhaust herself. She ought to be reserved to a war; the weight of which, with the enemies that we are most likely to have, must be considerable in her quarter of the globe. There she may serve you, and serve you essentially. which all men have naturally of supporting | sale of her commodities, to pay the duties or. the honor of their own government, that sense of dignity, and that security to property, which ever attends freedom, has a tendency to increase the stock of the free community. Most may be taken where most is accumulated. And what is the soil or climate where experience has not uniformly proved, that for the voluntary flow of heaped up plenty, bursting from the weight of its own rich luxuriance, has ever run with a more copious stream of revenue, than could be squeezed from the dry husks of oppressed indigence, by the straining of all the political machinery in the world. Next we know that parties must ever exist in a free country. We know too, that the emulations of such parties, their contradictions, their reciprocal necessities, their hopes, and their fears must send them all in their turns to him that holds the balance of the state. The parties are the gamesters; but government keeps the table, and is sure to be the winner in the end. When this game is played, I really think it is more to be feared, that the people will be exhausted, than that government will not be supplied. Whereas, whatever is got by acts of absolute power ill obeyed, because odious, or by contract ill kept, because constrained, will be narrow, feeble, uncertain, and precarious. "Ease would retract vows made in pain, as violent and void." I, for one protest against compounding our demands; I declare against compounding, for a poor limited sum, the immense, ever growing, eternal debt, which is due to generous government from protected freedom. And so may I speed in the great object I propose to you, as I think it would not only be an act of injustice, but would be the worst economy in the world, to compel the colonies to a certain sum, either in the way of ransom, or in the way of compulsory compact. But to clear up my ideas on this subject. a revenue from America transmitted hither-do not delude yourselves-you never can receive it—no, not a shilling. We have experienced that, from remote countries, it is not to be expected. If, when you attempted to extract a revenue from Bengal, you were obliged to return in iron what you had taken in imposition, what can you expect from North America? For certain if ever there was a country qualified to produce wealth, it is India; or an institution fit for the transmission, it is the East-India company. America has none of these aptitudes. If America gives you taxable objects, on which you lay your duties here, and gives you at the same time, a surplus by a foreign For that service, for all service, whether of revenue, trade, or empire, my trust is in her interest in the British constitution. My hold of the colonies is in the close affection which grows from common names, from kindred blood, from similar privileges, and equal protection. These are ties which though light as air, are as strong as links of iron. Let the colonies always keep the idea of their civil rights associated with your government; they will cling and grapple to you; and no force under Heaven will be of power to tear them from their allegiance. But let it once be understood, that your government may be one thing, and their privileges another, that these two things may exist without any mutual relation, the cement is gone; the cohesion is loosened; and every thing hastens to decay and dissolution. As long as you have wisdom to keep the sovereign authority of this country as the sanctuary of liberty, the sacred temple consecrated to our common faith, wherever the chosen race and sons of England worship freedom, they will turn their faces towards you. The more they multiply, the more friends you will have; the more ardently they love liberty, the more perfect will be their obedience. Slavery they can have any where. It is a weed that grows in every soil. They may have it from Spain, they may have it from Prussia. But until you become lost to all feeling of your true interest, and your natural dignity, freedom they can have from none but you. This is the commodity of price, of which you have the monopoly. This is the true act of navigation, which binds to you the commerce of the colonies, and through them secures to you the wealth of the world. Deny them this participation of freedom and you break that sole bond, which originally made, and must still preserve, the unity of the empire. Do not entertain so weak an imagination, as that your registers and your bonds. your affidavits and your suffrances, your cockets and clearances, are what form the great securities of your commerce. Do not dream, that your letters of office, and your instructions, you, and your suspending classes are the things | full confidence of this unalterable truth, I now that hold together the great contexture of this (quod felix faustumque sit) lay the first mysterious whole. These things do not make stone of the temple of peace; and I move to your government. Dead instruments, passive | tools as they are, it is the spirit of English com- That the colonies and plantations of Great munion that gives all their life and efficacy to Britain, in North America, consisting of fourthem. It is the spirit of the English constitution teen separate governments and containing two which, infused through the mighty mass, per- | millions and upwards of free inhabitants, have vades, feeds, invigorates, vivifies, every part of not had the right and privilege of electing and the empire, even down to the minutest members. sending their knights and burgesses, or others, Is it not the same virtue which does every- to represent in the high court of parliament." thing for us here in England? Do you imagine Upon this resolution the previous question then, that it is the land tax act which raises was put, and carried; for the previous question your revenue ? that it is the annual vote in the | 270, against it 78. committee of supply, which gives you your army? or that it is the mutiny bill which inspires it with bravery and discipline? No! surely no! It is the love of the people, it is their attachment to their government, from the sense of the deep stake they have in such a glorious institution, which gives you your army and your navy, and infuses into both that liberal obedience, without which your army would be a base rabble, and your navy nothing but rotten timber. GOVERNOR PENN, LATE OF PENNSYLVANIA. HIS EXAMINA- SATURDAY, November 11, 1775. HOUSE OF LORDS. The lords were yesterday assembled for the purposes of examining governor Penn, and of discussing a motion which the duke of Richmond proposed to ground on such information as that gentleman should afford the house. 66 Previous to the calling of Mr. Penn to the bar, the duke of Richmond announced the mode he had adopted preparatory to the governor's examination. His grace confessed, 'That he had apprised Mr. Penn of the questions which would be propounded to him, but the noble duke disclaimed having entered into any sort of conversation with the governor, lest such conversation should be malevolently construed into a design of anticipating the answers Mr. Penn might think proper to return." The duke of Richmond having finished his preliminary remarks, Mr. Penn was called to the bar, and interrogated nearly to the follow All this, I know well enough, will sound wild and chimerical to the profane herd of those vulgar and mechanical politicians, who have no place among us; a sort of people who think that nothing exists but what is gross and material; and who therefore, far from being qualified to be directors of the great movement of empire, are not fit to turn a wheel in the machine. But to men truly initiated and rightly taught, these ruling and master principles, which, in the opinion of such men as I have mentioned, have no substantial existence, are in truth everything, and all in all. Magnanimity in politics is not seldom the truest wisdom; and a great empire and little minds go ill together. If we are conscious of our situation, and glow with zeal to fill our place as becomes our station and ourselves, we ought|ing purport: to auspicate all our public proceedings on America, with the old warning of the church, sursum corda! We ought to elevate our minds to the greatness of that trust to which the order of Providence has called us. By adverting to the dignity of this high calling, our ancestors have turned a savage wilderness into a glorious empire; and have made the most extensive, and the only honorable con- | quests; not by destroying, but by promoting, A. In the highest veneration imaginable by the wealth, the number, the happiness, of the | all ranks and orders of men. human race. Let us get an American revenue as we have got an American empire. English privileges have made it all that it is; English privileges alone will make it all it can be. In Q. How long had he resided in America? A. Four years. Two of those years in the capacity of governor of Pennsylvania. Q. Was he acquainted with any of the members of the continental congress? A. He was personally acquainted with all the members of that congress. Q. In what estimation was the congress held? Q. Was an implicit obedience paid to the resolutions of that congress throughout all the provinces ? A. He believed this to be the case. Q. How many men had been raised through- | sylvania, he was sure this was the case; for the out the province of Pennsylvania? other provinces, he replied in the affirmative from information only. A. Twenty thousand effective men had voluntarily enrolled themselves to enter into actual service if necessity required. Q. Did he suppose that the congress contained delegates fairly nominated by the choice Q. Of what rank, quality and condition were of the people? these persons? A. He had no doubt but that the congress did A. Men of the most respectable character in contain delegates chosen under this description. the province. Q. By what mode were the delegates in con Q. Were not a considerable number of them gress appointed? entirely destitute of property? A. It was presumed that, subtracted from so large a number as 20,000, there were some necessitous, but the major part were in flourishing situations. Q. Besides those 20,000, who voluntarily enrolled themselves to act as exigencies might require, what other forces had the provincials of Pennsylvania raised? A. Four thousand minute-men, whose duty was pointed out by their designation. They were to be ready for service at a minute's warning. Q. Did the province of Pennsylvania grow corn sufficient for the supply of its inhabitants? A. Much more than sufficient, there was a surplus for exportation if required. Q. Were they capable of making gunpowder in Pennsylvania? A. By the votes of assemblies in some places, by ballot in others. Q. In what light had the petition, which the witness had presented to the king, been considered by the Americans? A. The petition had been considered as an olive branch, and the witness had been complimented by his friends, as the messenger of peace. Q. On the supposition that the prayer of this petition should be rejected, what did the witness imagine would be the consequence? A. That the Americans, who placed much reliance on the petition, would be driven to desperation by its non-success. Q. Did the witness imagine, that sooner than yield to what were supposed to be unjust claims of Great Britain, the Americans would take the desperate resolution of calling in the aid of A. They perfectly well understood the art, foreign assistance? and had effected it. A. The witness was apprehensive that this Q. Could salt-petre be made in the pro- would be the case. vince ? A. It could; mills and other instruments for effecting such an undertaking had been erected with success. Q. What did the witness recollect of the stamp act? A. That it caused great uneasiness throughout America. Q. What did the witness recollect, concern Q. Could cannon be cast in Pennsylvania? A. The art of casting cannon had been car-ing repeal of that act? ried to great perfection; they were amply furnished with iron for that purpose. A. The anniversary of that memorable day is kept throughout America, by every testimony Q. Could small arms be made to any degree of public rejoicing, such as bonfires, illuminaof perfection? A. To as great a degree of perfection as could be imagined. The workmanship employed in finishing the small arms was universally admired for its excellence. Q. Were the Americans expert in ship-building? A. More so than the Europeans. Q. To what extent of tonnage did the largest of their shipping amount? A. A ship of about three hundred tons was the largest they were known to build. Q. Circumstanced as things at present were, did the witness think, that the language of the congress expressed the sense of the people in America in general? tions, and other exhibitions of gladness. Q. Would not the neglect with which the last petition was treated induce the Americans to resign all hopes of pacific negotiations? A. In the opinion of witness it would. Q. When the witness presented the petition CROSS EXAMINED BY THE Lords DenBIGH As the witness had acted in the capacity of governor, was he well acquainted with the charter of Pennsylvania ? A. He had read the charter, and was well A. As far as the question applied to Penn- | acquainted with its contents. |