Is a charter, not consistent with the public good, to be continued? The honorable gentleman says, much bloodshed has been occasioned by taking away or altering of chartered rights; I grant it; but it has always been where encroachments have been made by improper parties, and the attack has been carried on by improper powers. He also says, this form of government in America ought not to be altered without hearing the parties; the papers on your table, surely, are sufficient evidence of what they have to say in their defence-look only into the letter, dated the 19th November, 1773, wherein the governor applied to the council for advice, and they neglected giving it to him! and also wherein a petition was presented to the council by certain persons who applied for protection to their property during these disturbances, the council, without giving any an

Why, then, will you proceed different from the | line which is always observed in courts of justice? You are now going to alter the charter because it is convenient. In what manner does the house mean to take away this charter, when in fact they refuse to hear the parties, or to go through a legal course of evidence of the facts. Chartered rights have, at all times, when attempted to be altered or taken away, occasioned much bloodshed and strife; and whatever persons in this house have advanced, that | they do not proceed upon this business but with trembling hands, I do also assure them that I have shown my fears upon this occasion; for I have run away from every question, except one, to which I gave my negative. I do not like to be present at a business, which I think inconsistent with the dignity and justice of this house; I tremble when I am, for fear of the consequences; and think it a little extraordi-swer, adjourned for ten days, and the governor nary that Mr. Bollan should be admitted to be heard as an American agent in the house of lords, when in the house of commons he was refused. I believe it is true, that the facts set forth in his petition to this house, were different from those which he presented to the house of lords; in one declaring himself an inhabitant of Boston, in the other omitting it. I cannot conceive it possible to proceed on this bill upon the small ground of evidence which you have had.

Mr. Welbore Ellis. I must rise, sir, with great confidence, when I differ from the honorable gentleman who spoke last, whose abilities are so eminently great; but I think, sir, that chartered rights are by no means those sacred things which never can be altered; they are vested in the crown as a prerogative, for the good of the people at large; if the supreme legislature find that those charters so granted, are both unfit and inconvenient for the public | utility, they have a right to make them fit and convenient; wherever private property is concerned, the legislature will not take it away without making a full recompense; but wherever the regulation of public matter is the object, they have a right to correct, control, or take it away, as may best suit the public welfare. The crown may sometimes grant improper powers with regard to governments that are to be established; will it not be highly proper and necessary, that the legislature, seeing in what manner the crown has been illadvised, should take into their consideration, and alter it as far as necessary. It is the legislature's duty to correct the errors that have been established in the infancy of that constitution, and regulate them for the public welfare.

was not able to do any thing himself without their opinion. Look again, sir, into the resolution which the council came to when they met again, stating the total insufficiency of their power. This, surely, sir, is an evidence competent to ground this bill upon. We have now got no farther than just to alter these two parts, as stated by themselves. Surely, sir, that form of government which will not protect your property, ought to be altered in such a manner as it may be able to do it.

General Conway. What I intend to say will not delay the house long. I am very sure what I intend to say will little deserve the attention of the house; but the subject is of that importance, that it requires it. The consequence of this bill will be very important and dangerous. Parliament cannot break into a right without hearing the parties. The question then is simply this :-Have they been heard? What! because the papers say a murder has been committed, does it follow they have proved it? Audi alteram partem, is a maxim I have long adhered to; but it, is something so inconsistent with parliamentary proceedings not to do it, that I am astonished at it. The council are blamed because they did not give that advice to the governor which he wanted. I think, sir, the governor might have acted alone, without their assistance. Gentlemen will consider, that this is not only the charter of Boston, or of any particular part, but the charter of all America. Are the Americans not to be heard?-Do not choose to consent and agree about appointing an agent? I think there is no harm upon this occasion, in stretching a point; and I would rather have Mr. Bollan, as an agent of America (though he

bent upon us now to take a different course. Whatever may be the consequence, we must risk something; if we do not, all is over. The measure now proposed, is nothing more than taking the election of counsellors out of the hands of those people, who are continually acting in defiance and resistance of your laws. It has also been said by gentlemen-send for the Americans to your bar-give them redress a twelve-month hence. Surely, sir, this cannot be the language that is to give effectual relief to America; it is not, I say again, political convenience, it is political necessity that urges this measure; if this is not the proper method, show me any other which is preferable, and I will postpone it.

is irregular in his appointment) sooner than | bearing has our conduct been, that it is incumleave it to be said, that this bill passed without it. The house being vociferous, he said, I am afraid I tire the house with my weak voice; if that is the case, I will not proceed, but I do think, and it is my sincere opinion, that we are the aggressors and innovators, and not the colonies. We have irritated and forced laws upon them for these six or seven years last past. We have enacted such a variety of laws, with these new taxes, together with a refusal to repeal the trifling duty on tea; all these things have served no other purpose but to distress and perplex. I think the Americans have done no more than every subject would do in an arbitrary state, where laws are imposed against their will. In my conscience, I think, taxation and legislation are in this case inconsistent. Have you not a legislative right over Ireland? And yet no one will dare to say we have a right to tax. These acts respecting America, will involve this country and its ministers in misfortunes, and I wish I may not add, in ruin.

Sir George Young. It remains to me, sir, that it is unanswered and unanswerable, what has been advanced by the honorable gentleman who spoke second, that the parties should be heard, though even at a twelve-month hence. Nothing, sir, but fatal necessity can countenance this measure. No body of men ought to be proceeded against without being heard, much less ought the regulation of a whole gov

Governor Johnston. I see, sir, a great disposition in this house to proceed in this business without knowing any thing of the constitution of America; several inconveniences will arise if the sheriff is to be appointed by the governor; the jury will, of course, be biased by some influence or other; special juries will be most liable to this. [Here the governor gave an account of the different riots which had happened in England, and compared them with what he called the false accounts of those from Amer

Lord North. I do not consider this matter of regulation to be taking away their charters in such manner as is represented; it is a regu-ernment to take place, without the parties lation of government to assist the crown; it attending in their defence against such alteraappears to me not to be a matter of political tions. expediency, but of necessity. If it does not stand upon that ground, it stands on nothing. The account which has just now been read to you is an authentic paper, transmitted to government here, showing that the council refused in every case their assistance and advice; and will this country sit still when they see the colony proceeding against your own subjects, tarring and feathering your servants, denying your laws and authority, refusing every direction and advice which you send? Are we, sir, seeing all this, to be silent, and give the gover-ica.] I impute, says he, all the misfortunes nor no support? Gentlemen say, let the colony come to your bar, and be heard in their defence; though it is not likely that they will come, when they deny your authority in every instance. Can we remain in this situation long? We must effectually take some measures to correct and amend the defects of that government. I have heard so many different opinions in regard to our conduct in America, I hardly know how to answer them. The honorable gentleman, who spoke last, formerly blamed the tame and insipid conduct of government; now he condemns this measure as harsh and severe. The Americans have tarred and feathered your subjects, plundered your merchants, burnt your ships, denied all obedience to your laws and authority; yet so clement and for- I

which have happened in America, to the taking away the power of the governor. No man of common sense can apprehend that the governor would ever have gone two or three days into the country, during these disturbances, if he had the command of the military power. The natural spirit of man would be fired, in such a manner, as to actuate himself to shew resistance; but in this governor no power was lodged. I disapprove much of the measure which is before us, and I cannot but think its consequences will be prejudicial.

Mr. C. Jenkinson. I rise, sir, only to observe, that if the colony has not that power within itself to maintain its own peace and order, the legislature should, and ought to have. Let me ask, sir, whether the colony took any step, in

any shape, to quell the riots and disturbances? | shall ask the council for advice, but it does not No, they took none. Let me ask again, whether say he shall not act without it, if they refuse to all the checks and control that are necessary, give it. It is said it is criminal to do any are not put into the commission of the govern- thing without advice of the council; I differ ments? Much has been said about hearing greatly, sir, from that doctrine; for I myself the parties, and taking away their chartered have acted without it in putting an end to disrights; I am of opinion, that where the right is turbances, in preserving the peace and good a high political regulation, you are not in that order of the place; if I had been governor durinstance bound to hear them; but the hearing ing the late disturbances, I would have given of parties is necessary where private property is an order for the military power to attend, and concerned. It is not only in the late proceed- then let me have seen what officer dare disobey. ings, but in all former, that they have denied I think the council are much to blame for not your authority over them; they have refused co-operating and assisting the governor, but I protection to his majesty's subjects, and in think the governor might have acted without every instance disobeyed the laws of this coun- the council. The council are inexcusable, try; either let this country forsake its trade with though not criminal, as they are not obliged to America, or let us give that due protection to give it. I, sir, for my part, shall give my last it which safety requires. opinion. I have always been in one way of thinking with regard to America, which I have both given here and wrote to America. They have all along tended to one point; but it is now no longer matter of opinion. Things are now come to action; and I must be free to tell the house, that the Americans will resist these measures: they are prepared to do it. I do not mean by arms, but by the conversation of public town meeting; they now send their letters by couriers, instead of the post, from one town to another; and I can say your post office will very soon be deprived of its revenue. With regard to the officers who command the militia of that country, they will have them of their own appointment, and not from government; but I will never more give an opinion concerning America in this house; those I have given have been disregarded.

Mr. Harris. I cannot see, sir, any reason for so wide a separation between America and England as other gentlemen are apt to think there ought to be; that country, sir, was hatched from this, and I hope we shall always keep it under the shadow of our wings. It has been said, no representation, no taxation. This was the system formerly adopted, but I do not find it authorized in any book of jurisprudence, nor do I deem it to be a doctrine either reasonable or constitutional. I insist upon it, they are bound to obey both the crown and parliament. The last twelve years of our proceedings have been a scene of lenity and inactivity. Let us proceed and mend our method, or else I shall believe, as an honorable gentleman has observed, that we are the aggressors.

Sir Edward Astley. If we have had a twelve years lenity and inactivity, I hope we shall not now proceed to have a twelve years cruelty and oppression. By the resolution and firmness which I perceive in the house, it seems to indicate a perseverance in the measure now proposed, which I deem to be a harsh one, and unworthy of a British legislature.

Mr. Ward. [The house was very noisy during the few words which he said.]-He found fault with the charter being left too much, as to the execution of its power, in the people, and he could not think the legislature was doing any thing, which it had not a right to do, as he had looked upon all charters to be granted with a particular clause in it expressing that it should not be taken away but by the parlia

ment.

Governor Pownal. I beg leave to set some gentlemen right, who have erred with regard to the charters of America. The appointment of several of the officers is in the governor. The charter of Boston directs, that the governor

Mr. Rigby. Upon my word, sir, what was just now said, is very worthy the consideration of this house; and if, from what the honorable gentleman says, it is true, and I believe he is well informed, it appears, that America is preparing to arms; and that the deliberations of their town meetings tend chiefly to oppose the measures of this country by force. He has told you, sir, that the Americans will appoint other officers than those sent by government to command their troops. He has told you that the post office is established on their account from town to town, in order to carry their traitorous correspondence from one to another. He has told you the post office revenue will soon be annihilated. If these things are true, sir, I find we have been the aggressors, by continually doing acts of lenity for these twelve years last past. I think, sir, and I speak out boldly when I say it, that this country has a right to tax America; but, sir, it is matter of astonishment to me, how an

honorable gentleman (Mr. Conway) can be the | duty; so, I find taxes are to be the reward of obedience; and the Americans, who are considered to have been in open rebellion, are to be rewarded by acquiescing in their measures. When will be the time when America ought to have heavy taxes laid upon it? The honorable gentleman (Mr. Rigby) tells you, that that time will be when the Americans are returned to peace and quietness. The honorable gentleman tells us also, that we have a right to tax Ireland; however I may agree with him in regard to the principle, it would not be policy to exercise it; I believe we have no more right to tax the one than the other. I believe America is wrong in resisting against this country, with regard to legislative authority. It was an old opinion, and I believe a very true one, that there was a dispensing power in the crown, but whenever that dispensing power was pretended to be exercised, it was always rejected and opposed to the utmost, because it operated to me, as a subject, as a deteriment to my property and liberty; but, sir, there has been a constant conduct practised in this country, consisting of violence and weakness; I wish those measures may not continue; nor can I think that the stamp-act would have been submitted to without resistance, if the administration had not been changed; the present bill before you is not tanti to what you want; it irritates the minds of the people, but does not correct the deficiencies of that government.

author of bringing in of declaratory law over all America, and yet saying at one and the same time, that we have no right to tax America? If I was to begin to say that America ought not to be taxed, and that these measures were not proper, I would first desire my own declaratory law to be repealed; but being of opinion that the Americans are the subjects of this country, I will declare freely, that I think this country has a right to tax America; but I do not say that I would put any new tax on at this particular crisis; but when things are returned to a peaceable state, I would then begin to exercise it. And I am free to declare my opinion, that I think we have a right to tax Ireland, if there was a necessity so to do, in order to help the mother country. If Ireland was to rebel and resist our laws, I would tax it. The mother country has an undoubted right and control over the whole of its colonies. Again, sir, a great deal has been said concerning requisition. Pray, in what manner is it to be obtained? Is the king to demand it, or are we, the legislative power of this country, to send a very civil polite gentleman over to treat with their assemblies? How and in what manner is he to address that assembly? Is he to tell the speaker that we have been extremely ill used by our neighbors the French; that they have attacked us in several quarters; that the finances of this country are in a bad state; and therefore we desire you will be kind enough to assist us, and give us some money? Is this to be the language of this country to that; and are we thus to go cap in hand? I am of opinion, that if the adminstration of this country had not been changed soon after passing the stamp-act, that tax would have been collected with as much ease as the land-tax is in Great Britain. I have acted, with regard to America, one consistent part, and shall continue in it, till I hear better reasons to convince me to the contrary. Governor Pownal, (to explain) I apprehend I have been totally misunderstood. I did not assert the Americans were now in rebellion, but that they are going to rebel; when that comes to pass, the question will be, who was the occasion of it? Something has been said relative to requisition; I think I gave several instances wherein the same had been complied with in time of war.

Mr. C. Fox. I am glad to hear from the honorable gentleman who spoke last, that now is not the time to tax America; that the only time for that is, when all these disturbances are quelled, and they are returned to their

Sir Gilbert Elliot arose to answer Mr. C. Fox, which he did in a very masterly manner, by stating that there was not the least degree of absurdity in taxing your own subjects, over whom you have declared you had an absolute right; though that tax should, through necessity, be enacted at a time when peace and quietness were the reigning system of the times; you declare you have that right, where is the absurdity in the exercise of it?

Sir Richard Sutton read a copy of a letter, relative to the government of America, from a governor in America, to the board of trade, shewing that, at the most quiet times, the dispositions to oppose the laws of this country were strongly ingrafted in them, and that all their actions conveyed a spirit and wish for independence. If you ask an American who is his master? he will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ. I do believe it, and it is my firm opinion, that the opposition to the measures of the legislature of this country, is a determined prepossession of the idea of total independence.

After which the bill was committed for Friday next, without a division.

FROM THE MARYLAND GAZETTE, SEPTEMBER 29, 1774.

dominions, to make you conceive what misery this right of taxation is capable of producing in a provincial government. We need only recollect that our countrymen in India have,

in the space of five or six years, in virtue of this right, destroyed, and driven away more inhabitants from Bengal, than are to be found at present in all our American colonies; more than all those formidable numbers which we have been nursing up for the space of two hundred years, with so much care and success, to the astonishment of all Europe. This is no exag

It is of such great importance to compose, or even to moderate, the dissensions which subsist at present between our unhappy country and her colonies, that I cannot help endeavoring, from the faint prospect I have of contrib-geration, my lords, but plain matter of fact, uting something to so good an end, to overcome the inexpressible reluctance I feel at uttering my thoughts before the most respectable of all audiences.

collected from the accounts sent over by Mr. Hastings, whose name I mention with honor and veneration. And, I must own, such accounts have very much lessened the pleasure I used to feel in thinking myself an Englishman. We ought surely not to hold our colonies totally inexcusable for wishing to exempt themselves from a grievance, which has caused such unexampled devastation; and, my lords, it would be too disgraceful to ourselves, to try so cruel an experiment more than once. Let us reflect, that before these innovations were thought of, by following the line of good conduct which had been marked out by our ancestors, we governed North America with mutual benefit to them and ourselves. It was a happy idea, that made us first consider them rather as instruments of commerce than as objects of

The true object of all our deliberations on this occasion, which I hope we shall never lose sight of, is a full and cordial reconciliation with North America. Now I own, my lords, I have many doubts whether the terrors and punishments we hang out to them at present are the surest means of producing this reconciliation. Let us at least do this justice to the people of North America, to own that we can all remember a time when they were much better friends than at present to their mother country. They are neither our natural nor our determined enemies. Before the stamp-act, | we considered them in the light of as good subjects as the natives of any county in Eng-government. It was wise and generous to give land.

It is worth while to enquire by what steps we first gained their affection, and preserved it so long; and by what conduct we have lately lost it. Such an enquiry may point out the means of restoring peace; and make the use of force unnecessary against a people, whom I cannot yet forbear to consider as our brethren.

It has always been a most arduous task to govern distant provinces, with even a tolerable appearance of justice. The viceroys and governors of other nations are usually temporary tyrants, who think themselves obliged to make the most of their time; who not only plunder the people, but carry away their spoils, and dry up all the sources of commerce and industry. Taxation, in their hands, is an unlimited power of oppression: but in whatever hands the power of taxation is lodged, it implies and includes all other powers. Arbitrary taxation is plunder authorized by law: it is the support and the essence of tyranny, and has done more mischief to mankind, than those other three scourges from Heaven, famine, pestilence and the sword. I need not carry your lordship out of your own knowledge, or out of your own

them the form and the spirit of our own constitution; an assembly, in which a greater equality of representation has been preserved them at home, and councils and governors, such as were adapted to their situation, though they must be acknowledged to be very inferior copies of the dignity of this house, and the majesty of the crown.

But what is far more valuable than all the rest, we gave them liberty. We allowed them to use their own judgment in the management of their own interest. The idea of taxing them never entered our heads. On the contrary they have experienced our liberality on many public occasions: we have given them bounties to encourage their industry, and have demanded no return but what every state exacts from its colonies, the advantages of an exclusive commerce, and the regulations that are necessary to secure it. We made requisitions to them on great occasions; in the same manner as our princes formerly asked benevolences of their subjects; and as nothing was asked but what was visibly for the public good, it was always granted; and they sometimes did more than we expected. The matter of