Mr. CORLISS. Well, I would take their hides, I would take their sugar, I would take their nuts, I would take their cocoa, and I would give them our wheat and our flour and other things they want.

Representative GROSVENOR. They have more wheat than we have. Mr. CORLISS. They have in the Argentine Republic, but not in Brazil and not in Chile.

Representative GROSVENOR. What would you do with the Argentine

wool?

Mr. CORLISS. I should not allow the Argentine wool to come in. [Laughter.] But I think there are things produced in South America that our people demand that they are willing to exchange for our products on a reduction in duty that would encourage trade. We have lost that trade. Why, the sale of flour in Brazil during the three years that the reciprocity was in existence was fabulous compared to what it has been since or ever was before. That can be restored. I am only giving this as an illustration of my views upon the matter.

I believe we must obtain a merchant marine. We must obtain it, if possible, by an indirect benefit, as we have obtained it in the commerce of the Lakes by improvement of natural ways; but we must have it even though you grant a subsidy directly.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the commerce of the Lakes largely because we have protected it by excluding foreign ships.

Mr. CORLISS. That is true, and yet you can not exclude Canadian ships. The Canadian ships run just as freely as ours through our canal as we do through theirs.

The CHAIRMAN. They do not do business, though, between American ports.

Mr. CORLISS. Not coastwise, no; nor do we with them.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. CORLISS. But that protection can be secured by proper treaties that will bar out other foreign ships in dealing with a South American republic. I would extend the benefit of the merchant marine in the Pacific Ocean, where we seek new territory.

Representative GROSVENOR. We have done that. We have passed a law already to extend our coastwise laws to the Philippine Islands. Mr. CORLISS. I am aware of that.

Representative GROSVENOR. We had a good deal of difficulty in doing it.

Mr. CORLISS. The term was extended, and I hope you will extend it again. I hope you will continue to extend it until we have a merchant marine that will hold that trade.

Representative GROSVENOR. The coastwise laws go into effect absolutely two years from this coming Friday. Heretofore the law was that until then they should not go into effect, but it did not provide that they should go into effect. Now we have it provided that in two years they shall go into effect. We had difficulty in passing that bill.

Mr. CORLISS. I understand the difficulties you had to contend with; but let me say to the Commission-and that seems to be all I might say of any benefit-that from my experience with you gentlemen, from my observation among the people here, those of our people who read and are intelligent and are not prejudiced by visions and theories are in favor of the proposition to build up an American merchant marine. How it shall be done is for you, and they will uphold any Administra

tion that puts it into execution. You may be condemned for doing it; you may be condemned for some time after it has been accomplished, but as certain as the people uphold to-day the river and harbor improvements, they will uphold any act of Congress looking to the establishment of a merchant marine. [Applause.]

STATEMENT OF GEORGE H. BARBOUR.

Mr. PENTON. Mr. George H. Barbour, general manager of the Michigan Stove Company, one of the largest industries in Detroit, has just come in, and will now address you.

The CHAIRMAN. We shall be glad to hear Mr. Barbour.

Mr. BARBOUR. Gentlemen of the Commission, I do not know that I have a great deal to say.

I was rather impressed with the last words of ex-Congressman Corliss. They cover my sentiments pretty thoroughly. I have felt all along, as a business man, that something should be done on the lines of the bill presented by the late lamented Senator Hanna. This is a great country, and I believe that we ought not to be second to any nation in the world. On the question of just how to accomplish the object in view, you gentlemen are better posted than I am, but I think this country should take some action, so that we may have ships on the Atlantic Ocean that can carry this great product of ours,. which is being manufactured and is growing from year to year. I want to see the American flag float over our own steamships. I want to see the mails carried in our own boats Perhaps I am asking a good deal, but nevertheless, as an American citizen, I feel such pride in my country that I want to see our merchant marine as large as any other on the face of God's globe.

LET THE HELP BE SUFFICIENT.

As Congressman Corliss says, just how to accomplish it I do not know. I have not given it attention. I am too busy perhaps in my business affairs, like many others, and do many things that I ought not to do and neglect things that I ought to do; but if there is any way to bring this about, even if we have to subsidize, let us do it. I do not know how extensive the subsidies should be, but let them be sufficient to accomplish the great object in which all we business men ought certainly to feel a deep interest-of having our American merchant marine second to none in this world.

I think we ought to feel glad that you gentlemen are with us to-day, and I am sorry I have not had time to give this subject deeper thought. I am only speaking from a general feeling of what I would like to see for the good of the country. I would like to see our noble American flag floating on the masts of our own ships. Of course you gentlemen can better judge, as I say, of the necessities; but we are growing all the time, and the necessities are becoming greater and greater year by year.

I am not going to take more of your time. The hour is growing late and I know you are feeling somewhat wearied. I hope you have had present a good number of business men, and I trust you will be able to frame something that will in the future, and not at a great distance in the future, greatly improve the present condition of our merchant marine. [Applause.]

The CHAIRMAN. Unless some other gentleman desires to be heard, the hearing will now close.

Before adjourning I want to express the thanks of the Merchant Marine Commission to all the gentlemen who have appeared and expressed their views on this very important subject. We thank those who have opposed the granting of any aid, if any such have been here to-day, as much as those who have given us more direct words of cheer, because we believe that every word that has been uttered has been honest and conscientious.

The best we can promise you gentlemen in return is that, eliminating from the consideration of this great subject every political or partisan feeling, we are determined to give it our most earnest and sincere thought, in the hope that we may be able to lay the foundation for some remedial legislation. [Applause.]

The Commission (at 4 o'clock and 50 minutes p. m.) adjourned to meet in Cleveland, Ohio, June 28, 1904, at 10 o'clock a. m.

CLEVELAND, OHIO, June 28, 1904.

The Commission met at 10 o'clock a. m. at the rooms of the chamber of commerce.

Present: Senators Gallinger (chairman) and Penrose and Representatives Grosvenor, Minor, Humphrey, and Spight.

ADDRESS OF AMOS B. M'NAIRY.

President of the Cleveland Chamber of Commerce.

Mr. MCNAIRY. Gentlemen of the Merchant Marine Commission, for two days we will have the honor of entertaining you as the guests of the Cleveland Chamber of Commerce. You are in a city of almost 500,000 people, one of the busiest and wealthiest cities of our country, the prosperity of which is founded almost solely upon water-borne commerce. Cleveland is but little more than a century old, and yet for almost a century our people have been builders of ships, and the use of our harbor by our own people dates back to the day when Moses Cleaveland pushed his boats up against the bank on the site of the city that was to bear his name.

In 1805, standing on the bluff near the foot of Water street, in this city, Gideon Granger said, "Within fifty years an extensive city will occupy these grounds, and vessels will sail directly from this port to Europe." No prophet could have made a more accurate forecast.

This Chamber of Commerce memorialized Congress last winter in favor of the passage of the bill which created this Commission. When we saw the passage of the bill and the appointment of the Commission we were instant to invite the Commission here, because here in Cleveland is where you will find an appreciation of the value of an American merchant marine, and where we hope you will also find information of value on the subject of rehabilitating the ocean-going merchant marine of our country.

I have the honor of presenting to you now the mayor of our city, Hon. Tom L. Johnson.

ADDRESS OF TOM L. JOHNSON,

Mayor of the city of Cleveland.

Mayor JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the Commission, it is a very pleasant duty to welcome you to Cleveland, and as the president of the Chamber of Commerce has well said, this is a city greatly interested in the examination and research you have undertaken. I hope you will have a pleasant stay here, and that you will receive aid from our leading vessel men in conducting your investigation.

I should like to add that I personally hope, as the result of the work you have undertaken, you will reach the conclusion, in which probably nobody in this room will agree with me, that the best way to help our merchant marine is to give us more freedom, less restriction; but to discuss that would be verging on a political discussion, and Í will forbear.

I wish you a pleasant stay. I hope every interest that you represent will be greatly benefited, and that as a result your work in the next Congress will produce good results for the people at large.

RESPONSE OF THE CHAIRMAN.

The CHAIRMAN. President McNairy, in behalf of the Merchant Marine Commission, I desire to thank you, sir, for the kind words of welcome you have uttered, representing as you do a great business organization. The Commission very highly appreciates the fact that the Chamber of Commerce feels an interest in the work that it has in hand.

And, Mr. Mayor, the Commission thanks you profoundly for giving us, in behalf of the city of which you are the chief executive, a word of cheer. We knew we would be welcome to Cleveland, and we have received a royal welcome. The only difficulty on the part of some of the citizens seems to be that they want to do for us more than they find an opportunity to do.

We are not unmindful, citizens of Cleveland, of the fact that this was the home of Senator Hanna, one of the greatest men of the country, who was profoundly interested in trying to do something to rehabilitate the American merchant marine. He was the colleague of some of us present to-day, and we speak from personal and official knowledge when we say that he was a legislator of remarkable aptitude, and that he represented the great State of Ohio with distinguished ability.

It is a pleasure to us also to be permitted to meet the governor of the State, a distinguished citizen of Cleveland, who has always manifested a deep interest in the subject we have in hand.

We are not unmindful, either, of the fact that this is the home of the chairman of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors of the House of Representatives, and those of us who have of late years been engaged in legislative duties in Washington know of the great services that distinguished man-Mr. Burton-has rendered to your State, to the lake region, and to the entire country as chairman of that great committee.

OBEYING A MANDATE.

Now, gentlemen, we are here in obedience to a mandate of the Congress of the United States. The question of doing something to

aid American shipping on the high seas has been discussed for a long period, and various efforts have been made by way of legislation to remedy what every patriotic American citizen deplores-the decadence of the American merchant marine. After the failure of the efforts in Congress to enact statutes, it was suggested in certain quarters that it would be desirable to appoint a commission, nonpartisan, and, so far as possible, of men who were not prejudiced in behalf of any particular theory or notion, to take the matter into consideration, and to invite expressions of opinion from the business men, the shippers, the laboring men, and all classes who were interested in the question as to what might be done by way of remedial legislation.

The statute under which we are proceeding requires this Commission "to investigate and to report to the Congress on the first day of its next session what legislation, if any, is desirable for the development of the American merchant marine and American commerce, and also what change or changes, if any, should be made in existing laws relating to the treatment, comfort, and safety of seamen, in order to make more attractive the seafaring calling in the American merchant service." The Commission is composed, as many of you know, of five members of the Senate, appointed by the President pro tempore of that body, and five members of the House of Representatives, appointed by the Speaker.

We have endeavored, gentlemen, to approach this subject in an impartial way and with our minds free to be persuaded by facts as they may be presented to us. The Commission has held meetings in four cities of the North Atlantic seaboard, and this is the third lake city in which we have held sessions. It has been a matter of great gratification to the Commission that, while we have had all kinds of views expressed to us, which we have solicited, we have been met everywhere cordially and with open arms, and that the expression from all those who have been before us, with possibly one or two exceptions, has been that they have realized the necessity of something being done in behalf of the American merchant marine.

SOME HARD FACTS.

We have said at other places what I will say here-that it is not necessary for us to waste any time in discussing the existing condition of things so far as the American merchant marine is concerned. We once carried in American bottoms 924 per cent of our exports and imports. Last year we carried 8 per cent. At the present time the United States is paying out approximately $200,000,000 to foreign steamship lines for carrying our products to the markets of the world and returning our imports.

I was struck, in looking over a little leaflet that has been published by the proprietor or proprietors of the Marine Review, in this city, which contains a vast fund of information of which I trust every gentleman present will avail himself, to note that in the month of January of the present year 272 vessels passed through the Suez Canal and only one of them carried the American flag, and probably that was the yacht of some distinguished millionaire of our country.

Mr. John Barrett, our present ministerio Panama, formerly our minister to Siam, and afterwards minister to Argentina, testified before the Commission that he had traveled around the world three times, once going 50,000 miles-25,000 in a direct route and 25,000 on side routes-and that he had not seen the American flag on a merchant