a plea of the wants of Greenwich Hospital, refuse to do an act of justice to lord Newburgh.

and the Committee might with as much reason vote any other sum as 2,600. If a case in favour of the lady could be made out, let the House vote her an allowance distinctly and separately; but he knew of no such case.

Mr. Fox answered, that he really had supported the amendment, because he thought the sum moved for, fell short of what it ought to amount to, and because he considered it as reasonable to enable lord Newburgh to make a better provision for his distressed relation than he otherwise would be enabled to do. Though he perfectly agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that it would be better to go vern what was done by any principle, no matter what, rather than let it depend on the favour or fancy of the moment, yet he did not think that sufficient attention had been paid to lord Newburgh's claims upon the public. No man could deny that the money laid out on the estates by Greenwich Hospital on their improvement, the money spent in paying off incumbrances upon the estate at the time of the forfeiture, and the 30,000l. granted to the ancestor of lord Newburgh, were all to be deducted from the value of the estate; but still there was something like a claim to be allowed in respect to the other estates, those to which lord Newburgh's claim was legally barred by the decision of the question of alienage. Every man who knew any thing of landed estates in this country, knew that a landed estate of 2,500l. a year, was infinitely preferable to an annuity of 2,500l. It was not merely the income that the land carried with it: every gentleman knew, it carried with it a variety of other advantages, and, in the case in question, very considerable patronage. These were, undoubtedly, circumstances of material consideration. With regard to the aunt of lord Newburgh having no legal claim, surely it would be admitted, that every head of a family possessed of a considerable estate, was looked up to by the younger branches for support and assistance, if they needed either. If lord Newburgh or his ancestor had held the estate in their own hands, in all probability their aunt would not have been involved in such distress and poverty as she had experienced for a number of years.

Mr. Whitbread said, if Greenwich Hospital was poor, and wanted assistance, let the House vote a grant of 5,000l. and give it to the Hospital; but let them not, on [VOL. XXVII.]

The question," That 2,500l. stand part of the question," was then put, and carried.

Debate in the Commons on the Compen sation to the American Loyalists.] June 6. The House being in a Committee on the Bill" for appointing commissioners further to inquire into the losses and services of all such persons who have suffered in their rights, properties, and professions, during the late unhappy dissentions in America, in consequence of their loyalty to his Majesty, and attachment to the British government,'

Mr. Pitt rose. He said that he conceived no dissimilarity of opinion would be found to affect the principle of the business to which he meant to call the attention of the Committee, although, perhaps, some difference of sentiment might be entertained as to the mode and distinctions which he should consider it his duty to propose, in order to carry the principle into effect. What he had to submit to the consideration of the Committee was, the satisfaction to be made to the American loyalists, for the final liquidation and adjustment of their claims, on account of losses sustained by them in consequence of their adherence to this country during the late American war. The American loyalists, in his opinion, could not call upon the House to make compensation for their losses as a matter of strict justice; but they, most undoubtedly, had strong claims on their generosity and compassion. In the mode, therefore, that he should propose for finally adjusting their claims, he had laid down a principle with a view to mark this distinction; and had adhered to it throughout the various quotas of compensation that he should propose to be made to the various classes of loyalists, the more clearly to ascertain and establish it. Having premised this, Mr. Pitt stated the different descriptions of loyalists who had preferred their claims before the commissioners appointed to inquire into American claims, and divided them into four classes. In the first class, he considered and ranked all those who had resided in America at the commencement of the war, and who, in pursuance of their principles of loyalty and adherence to this country, were obliged to abandon their estates and their property in America, which were, in consequence, seized and confiscated by the [2 R]

Mr. Hussey said, that he was not yet satisfied in his mind whether he ought to vote in favour of the motion. What he, wished to be satisfied in was, whether the claims of the loyalists were founded in right or not, or whether the voting such sums as were then proposed, was a mere matter of favour and liberality.

been already advanced at different riods, he said he should move a general resolution for the amount of that sum to be issued in debentures, bearing 3 per cent. interest, which would, he thought, be nearly equal to a ready money payment; and he had, on a former occasion, hinted his idea of proposing, with the approbation of the Committee, that the whole sum should be paid off by instalment, by means of a lottery, till the whole should be cleared. That however, was matter for farther consideration; it was sufficient for the present to move, "That 1,228,2394. be voted to the several American claimants for losses, &c., and 113,952. 14s. 32d. to the Florida claimants."

Sir E. Astley said, that when the sub. ject of the claims of the American loyalists had been last under consideration, he had taken the liberty of asking the right hon. gentleman, if he had seen a pamphlet on the subject, which had been sent round to the members of that House; and to this question, the right hon. gentleman had answered that he had read the pamphlet. Sir Edward declared, that he had, at the time, alluded to certain distinctions between those American loyalists who had fairly and boldly stepped forward at the commencement of the war, and declared in favour of this country, and such others, as had, by false intelligence and other means fomented the quarrel, and inflamed the minds of the people of England against America. In consequence of what he had then remarked, he had been regarded by the newspapers as a systematic opposer of the claims of the American loyalists. He had therefore determined to take the first opportunity of clearing his character from such an aspersion. He was no enemy to the loyalists; no opposer, generally of their claims. On the contrary, he thought that House bound in honour and justice to pay them due attention. All he wished was, that a line might be drawn between the deserving and the undeserving. He had lately conversed with two of the commissioners appointed to examine those claims, who had perfectly satisfied his mind upon the subject, by assuring him, that great attention had been paid to the distinction of merit and demerit, and as he took it for granted that the several divisions and deductions stated by the right hon. gentleman that day, had been governed by an attention to the distinction to which he adverted, he had no objection to the motion.

Mr. Burke said, that he felt extreme concern at discovering that an hon. gen. tleman of so enlightened a mind, and of the purity of whose intentions, on all occasions, no man could make the smallest question, had any doubts or objections to the present motion. He never gave a vote with more satisfaction, than he should give his vote for the present motion, because, though the loyalists had no claim upon the House founded in strict rightwhich must necessarily be arbitrary, and could admit of no modification whatever, but must be fully satisfied to its utmost extent, whatever that might be-yet the House was bound in honour and justice to take their claims into consideration. Mr. Burke assured the Committee, that such a mode of compensating the claims of the loyalists would do the country the highest credit. He said, it was a new and a noble instance of national bounty and generosity. At the restoration, he remembered the case had been widely different. There the poor bishops, who had been so long deprived of their sees, were deemed well off to obtain their sees again, and the sum of 80,000l. was all that the House had voted for the King to distribute among the loyalists, though it was a well-known fact that the marquis of Worcester alone had lost an estate of 300,000l. Mr. Burke descanted on these historical facts, and said, it was a solid satisfaction to his mind, that he had uniformly voted against every question that led to the consequences that laid the Committee under the necessity of coming to the vote then proposed; he should, nevertheless, chearfully vote any sum however large, upon the account stated, because, though the American war had been carried on by the voice of a majority, all were involved in the promises of that majority; and the loyalists had certainly been assured from the first authority in the state, that if they left their property and joined the King's army, or came to England, they should receive protection and support. That pledge was sacred, and ought to be faithfully fulfilled. With regard to the proposed mode of making the compensation, he thought is

both liberal and prudent, neither too large on the one hand, nor too small on the other; and he gave the right hon. gentleman credit for having made the divisions, and distinguished the deductions to be taken from the claims of the different classes of loyalists. It did this country honour, inasmuch as it showed our attention to the different extent and force of the claims of the several claimants; and it would not have done them honour, had they expected to have been paid the full amount of those claims, because it would have proved, that they had no real principle of loyalty to inspire their conduct, but that they had joined the side that they had joined, under a certain expectation of running no risk whatever, but of receiving back the whole of their property. Mr. Burke concluded, with giving his assent to the motion.

Mr. D. P. Coke said, there was a class of claimants, whose claims ought, in his mind, to have been satisfied in full, and those were the loyalists, who had been resident in America when the war broke out. Among the description of claimants, one case peculiarly hard, was that of col. Philips, a most meritorious man, who deserved every possible mark of attention and favour. Col. Philips had a landed estate of worth 40,000l., when the war broke out, and he had seven children. During the war, he had rendered the most important services to the British cause, and he could not think that such a man should pay any part of the 40,000l. that had been his property. He said, he would make a motion to the effect: "That it was the opinion of the Committee, that the losses of the American loyalists before the war commenced, be made good, without any diminution." He hoped the House would approve of such a motion, and not suffer the character of the country to stand impeached for a paltry ten per

cent.

Mr. Fox said, that, in his opinion, the giving the loyalists relief was not a matter of liberality, nor a matter of compassion, but what they had a strict right to; not a right to the full payment of their unqualified claims, but a strict right to a compensation for what they had suffered: such a compensation as that House should, upon due consideration, think fit to make them; and, therefore the strict right that he alluded to, differed only in definition, but not in point or effect, to the strict right alluded to by the right hon. gentleman

over the way. Mr. Fox said, he felt some sort of difficulty in speaking on the subject. It was well known he had at times expressed not the most favourable opinion of some of the loyalists, nor of the motives that had actuated their conduct, and did continue to actuate it during the war. He would, however, for the present, dismiss all that sort of feeling from his breast, and speak solely to the question before the House. Whatever he might think of some individuals among the loyalists, none in that House were of opinion that they had a juster claim to compensation than he had; but not a claim to the whole of their demand. To act by them upon any such preposterous idea, would be making many of them stand in a better situation than they would have done, had the war ended differently than it did. The right hon. gentleman, he thought, had proposed not only fairly and properly, but happily and generously. Had the loyalists known even before they took their option, and joined the British side of the question, that they would have been at all events compensated in the manner now proposed, and that the risk would have continued such, subject to the chance of success on our part, he must have been a dastardly wretch indeed, who, besides a predilection for one side, would not have ventured such a risk. At the same time, he did not think the right hon. gentleman had acted too generously. The American loyalists were all meritorious to this country, by doing at their risk, what the parliament required of them, and therefore they were entitled to a compensation, but by no means to a full compensation as proposed by the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and therefore he held himself bound to vote against his proposed motion.

Mr. Pitt said, that he had received peculiar satisfaction from the concurrence of the right hon. gentleman, but he did not think, however it might add to the popularity of the measure, that it ought to be conceived to be more liberal than it really was. He felt it to be his duty, therefore, to state, that the distinction alluded to by an hon. baronet between such loyalists as were more deserving than others, on account of their political principles, had not been made. In fact, no such distinction could be made, nor, in his mind, ought it at that time to be adverted to. With regard to the observation, that if the loyalists had been paid in full, they would have been better off, than even

if the war had ended differently, he could not assent to this idea. They certainly had no sort of claim to a repayment of all they had lost. He was, nevertheless, of opinion that the line should be liberally drawn, and a handsome compensation made. What he had proposed was, he, trusted, a liberal and a handsome compensation, and left the loyalists without a plea for complaining that they had been hardly dealt by, all the circumstances of their case, and the case of this country, considered. With regard to what an hon. gentleman had said, he could by no means agree, that because colonel Philips was a meritorious officer, that on his account singly, a principle ought to be departed from. Let the hon. gentleman recollect, that as the case stood, colonel Philips's representatives would receive 50,000. out of a claim of 62,000/., and Mr. Harford would only receive 50,000. out of a claim of 210,000!.

Sir M. W. Ridley asked whether, although Mr. Harford's claim had been 210,000l. he was to receive only 50,000/.; and col. Philips's family were to receive the same sum? Surely, no equitable scale of deduction could warrant such an extraordinary adjustment of two claims of such very different amounts.

Mr. For asked, what the grounds for reducing Mr. Harford's claim to 50,000l. were?

Mr. Pitt said, that Mr. Harford was the only person in the second class of claimants, who had a claim to a larger amount than 23,000l. In that class he had proposed a deduction of 20 per cent, in the first instance, from all over the first 10,000l.up to 30,000l., and that deduction to increase in regular progression upon every 501. upwards; tracing which principle truly, it would be found, that Mr. Harford's claim of 210,000/. was ultimately reduced to 50,000l. and small as that sum was in proportion to the claim, no man could say, it was not a comfortable subsistence, and he had no scruple to avow, that he thought it a handsome gift on the part of the country. Mr. Fox remarked, that if the scale bore hard on Mr. Harford, he was glad to find, if it must fall any where, that it would fall on those who possessed the largest property, and who could consequently best bear the blow. It was, however, a hardship on Mr. Harford, and he would show the right hon. gentleman where it arose from a departure from the strictness of his own principle. The right hon. gentleman had said,

that every claimant, who had demanded under 10,000l. should receive the whole, and he had then stated for all above 10,000l., and under 30,000l., fifteen per cent. should be deducted, assigning as a reason for taking so wide a distance as from 10,000/, to 30,000l. and charging the deduction only upon the excess over the 10,000l. that if any claimant whose demand amounted to but a trifling sum more than 10,000l. were to be liable to a deduction of 15 per cent. upon the whole, he might possibly receive a smaller compensation, than the claimant whose debt was only a trifle under 10,000l. If the right hon. gentleman, therefore, had followed up this sort of principle, and governed the size and amount of his per-centage deduction, strictly, letting the 15 per cent. operate upon the excess betwen 10 and 30,000, then imposing an additional per-centage betwen 30 and 50,000l. another between 50,000l. and 100,000l. and thus, in progression, all this, as far as the allotment could have applied to Mr. Harford's case, must have secured to him more than 50,000/. for his portion.

Mr. Pitt thanked the right hon. gentleman who had reminded him of a circumstance he had overlooked; for he had just discovered, that there was one claimant above 30,000l. and yet not reaching to 44,000l. upon which, if the 15 per cent. strictly operated, that claimant might receive a smaller compensation than a claimant for something under the sum of 30,000l., but he could not perceive that Mr. Harford's claim could, upon any fixed principle, be altered; if it could, he should not have the smallest objection, as he had endeavoured to draw the line fairly, without the smallest communication with any of the parties, Mr. Harford being at that hour utterly ignorant what the Committee were likely to do with his claim.

Mr. Hussey thought Mr. Harford's case rather severe, and that the debentures ought to bear a better interest than 3 per cent. He was a friend to economy, but one or two hundred thousand pounds was a trifling consideration, where the national justice was pledged.

Mr. Wilmot rejoiced that the stage of the inquiry was come, when the loyalists were to receive the ultimate settlement of their claims, and he thought the propositions liberal, although he owned he had ever expected, that what the commissioners reported, was to be the amount of the sums paid to the loyalists.