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been already advanced at different pe- Mr. Hussey said, that he was not yet riods, he said he should move a ge- satisfied in his mind whether he ought to neral resolution for the amount of that vote in favour of the motion. What he , sum to be issued in debentures, bearing wished to be satisfied in was, whether the 31 per cent. interest, which would, he claims of the loyalists were founded in thought, be nearly equal to a ready money right or not, or whether the voting such payment; and he had, on a former occa- sums as were then proposed, was a mere sion, hinted his idea of proposing, with the matter of favour and liberality. approbation of the Committee, that the Mr. Burke said, that he felt extreme whole sum should be paid off by instal-concern at discovering that an hon.egenment, by means of a lottery, till the whole tleman of so enlightened a mind, and of should be cleared. That however, was the purity of whose intentions, on all occamatter for farther consideration; it was sions, no man could make the smallest sufficient for the present to move, “ That question, had any doubts or objections to 1,228,2391. be voted to the several Ameri- the present motion. He never gave a can claimants for losses, &c., and 113,9521. vote with more satisfaction, than be should 14s. 32d, to the Florida claimants.”
give his vote for the present motion, Sir E. Astley said, that when the sub. because, though the loyalists had no claim ject of the claims of the American loyalists upon the House founded in strict right had been last under consideration, he had which must necessarily be arbitrary, and taken the liberty of asking the right hon. could admit of no modification whatever, gentleman, if he had seen a pamphlet on but must be fully satished to its utmost the subject, which had been sent round to extent, whatever that might be-yet the the members of that House; and to this House was bound in honour and justice to question, the right hon. gentleman had take their claims into consideration. Mr. answered that he had read the pamphlet. Burke assured the Committee, that such a Sir Edward declared, that he had, at the mode of compensating the claims of the time, alluded to certain distinctions be- loyalists would do the country the highest tween those American loyalists who had credit. He said, it was a new and a noble fairly and boldly stepped forward at the instance of national bounty and generosity. commencement of the war, and declared At the restoration, he remembered the in favour of this country, and such others, case had been widely different. There the as had, by false intelligence and other poor bishops, who had been so long demeans fomented the quarrel, and inflamed prived of their sees, were deemed well off the minds of the people of England against to obtain their sees again, and the sum of America. In consequence of what he had | 80,0001. was all that the House had voted then remarked, he had been regarded by for the King to distribute among the the newspapers as a systematic opposer of loyalists, though it was a well-known fact the claims of the American loyalists. He that the marquis of Worcester alone had had therefore determined to take the first lost an estate of 300,0001. Mr. Burke opportunity of clearing his character from descanted on these historical facts, and such an aspersion. He was no enemy to said, it was a solid satisfaction to his mind, the loyalists; no opposer, generally of that he had uniformly voted against every their claims. On the contrary, he thought question that led to the consequences that that House bound in honour and justice laid the Committee under the necessity of to pay them due attention. All he wished coming to the vote then proposed; he was, that a line might be drawn between should, nevertheless, chearfully vote any the deserving and the undeserving. He sum however large, upon the account had lately conversed with two of the com- stated, because, though the American war missioners appointed to examine those had been carried on by the voice of a maclaims, who had perfectly satisfied his jority, all were involved in the promises mind upon the subject, by assuring him, of that majority; and the loyalists had that great attention had been paid to the certainly been assured from the first distinction of merit and demerit, and as authority in the state, that if they left their he took it for granted that the several property and joined the King's army, or divisions and deductions stated by the came to England, they should receive right hop. gentleman that day, had been protection and support. That pledge was governed by an attention to the distinction sacred, and ought to be faithfully fulfilled. to which he adverted, he had no objection With regard to the proposed mode of to the motion.
making the compensation, he thought it
both liberal and prudent, neither too, over the way. Mr. Fox said,' he felt large on the one hand, nor too small on some sort of difficulty in speaking on the the other; and he gave the right hon. subject. It was well known ne had at gentleman credit for having made the times expressed not the most favourable divisions, and distinguished the deductions opinion of some of the loyalists, nor of to be taken from the claims of the dif- the motives that had actuated their con. ferent classes of loyalists. It did this duct, and did continue to actuate it during country honour, inasmuch as it showed the war. He would, however, for the our attention to the different extent and present, dismiss all that sort of feeling force of the claims of the several claimants; from his breast, and speak solely to the and it would not have done them honour, question before the House. Whatever he had they expected to have been paid the might think of some individuals among the
full amount of those claims, because it | loyalists, none in that House were of opi, would have proved, that they had no real nion that they had a juster claim to comprinciple of loyalty to inspire their conduct, pensation than he had; but not a claim to but that they had joined the side that they the whole of their demand. To act by had joined, under a certain expectation of them upon any such preposterous idea, running no risk whatever, but of receiving would be making many of them stand in a back the whole of their property. Mr. better situation than they would have done, Burke concluded, with giving his assent to had the war ended differently than it did. the motion.
The right hon. gentleman, he thought, had Mr. D. P. Coke said, there was a class proposed not only fairly and properly, but of claimants, whose claims ought, in his happily and generously. Had the loyalists mind, to have been satisfied in full, and known even before they took their option, those were the loyalists, who had been and joined the British side of the question, resident in America when the war broke that they would have been at all events out. Among the description of claimants, compensated in the manner now proposed, one case peculiarly hard, was that of col. and that the risk would have continued Philips, a most meritorious man, who de- such, subject to the chance of success on served every possible mark of attention our part, he must have been a dastardly and favour. Col. Philips had a landed wretch indeed, who, besides a predilection estate of worth 40,0001., when the war for one side, would not have ventured such broke out, and he had seven children. a risk. At the same time, he did not think During the war, he had rendered the most the right hon. gentleman had acted too important services to the British cause, generously. The American loyalists were and he could not think that such a man | all meritorious to this country, by doing should pay any part of the 40,0001. that at their risk, what the parliament required had been his property. He said, he would of them, and therefore they were entitled make a motion to the effect : “ That it to a compensation, but by no means to a was the opinion of the Committee, that full compensation as proposed by the hon. the losses of the American loyalists before gentleman who spoke last, and therefore the war commenced, be made good, with he held himself bound to vote against his out any diminution.". He hoped the proposed motion
: House would approve of such a motion, Mr. Pitt said, that he had received peand not suffer the character of the country | culiar satisfaction from the concurrence to stand impeached for a paltry ten per of the right hon. gentleman, but he did cent.
not think, however it might add to the Mr. Fox said, that, in his opinion, the popularity of the measure, that it ought to giving the loyalists relief was not a matter be conceived to be more liberal than it of liberality, nor a matter of compassion, really was. He felt it to be his duty, but what they had a strict right to; not a therefore, to state, that the distinction right to the full payment of their unquali- / alluded to by an hon. baronet between fied claims, but a strict right to a compen- such loyalists as were more deserving than sation for what they had suffered: such a others, on account of their political princompensation as that House should, upon ciples, had not been made. In fact, no due consideration, think fit to make them; such distinction could be made, nor, in and, therefore the strict right that he his mind, ought it at that time to be ad. alluded to, differed only in definition, but verted to. With regard to the observation, not in point or effect, to the strict right that if the loyalists had been paid in full, alluded to by the right hon. gentleman they would have been better off, than even if the war had ended differently, he could that every claimant, who had demanded not assent to this idea. They certainly had under 10,0001. should receive the whole, no sort of claim to a repayment of all and he had . then stated for all above they had lost. · He was, nevertheless, of 10,0001., and under 30,0001., fifteen per opinion that the line should be liberally cent. should be deducted, assigning as a drawn, and a handsome compensation made. reason for taking so wide a distance as from What he had proposed was, he, trusted, 10,0001, to 30,0001. and charging the dea liberal and a handsome compensation, duction only upon the excess over the and left the loyalists without a plea for 10,0001. that if any claimant whose demand complaining that they had been hardly amounted to but a trifling sum more than dealt by, all the circumstances of their 10,0001. were to be liable to a deduction case, and the case of this country, consi- of 15 per cent. upon the whole, he might dered. With regard to what an hon. gen- possibly receive a smaller compensation, tleman had said, he could by no means than the claimant whose debt was only a agree, that because colonel Philips was a trifle under 10,000l. If the right hon. meritorious officer, that on his account gentleman, therefore, had followed up this singly, a principle ought to be departed sort of principle, and governed the size from. Let the hon. gentleman recollect, and amount of his per-centage deduction, that as the case stood, colonel Philips's strictly, letting the 15 per cent. operate representatives would receive 50,0001. out upon the excess betwen 10 and 30,0001.. of a claim of 62,0001., and Mr. Harford then imposing an additional per-centage would only receive 50,0001, out of a claim | betwen 30 and 50,0001. another between of 210,0001.
50,0001. and 100,0001. and thus, in proSir M. W. Ridley asked whether, al- gression, all this, as far as the allotment though Mr. Harford's claim had been could have applied to Mr. Harford's case, 210,0001. he was to receive only 50,0006.; must have secured to him more than and col. Philips's family were to receive the -50,0001. for his portion. same sum! Surely, no equitable scale of Mr. Pitt thanked the right hon. gentle.. deduction could warrant such an extraordi- man who had reminded him of a circumnary adjustment of two claims of such very stance he had overlooked; for he had just different amounts.
discovered, that there was one claimant Mr. Fox asked, what the grounds for above 30,0001. and yet not reaching to reducing Mr. Harford's claim to 50,0001. | 44,0001. upon which, if the 15 per cent. were?
strictly operated, that claimant might Mr. Pitt said, that Mr. Harford was the receive a smaller compensation than a only person in the second class of claimants, claimant for something under the sum of who had a claim to a larger amount than 30,0001., but he could not perceive that 23,000l. In that class he had proposed a de- Mr. Harford's claim could, upon any fixed duction of 20 per cent, in the first instance, principle, be altered; if it could, he should from all over the first 10,0001.up to 30,0001., not have the smallest objection, as he had and that deduction to increase in regular endeavoured to draw the line fairly, without progression upon every 50l. upwards; trac- the smallest communication with any of ing which principle truly, it would be found, the parties, Mr. Harford being at that that Mr. Harford's claim of 210,0001. hour utterly ignorant what the Committee was ultimately reduced to 50,0001. and were likely to do with his claim. small as that sum was in proportion to Mr. Hussey thought Mr. Harford's case the claim, no man could say, it was not a rather severe, and that the debentures comfortable subsistence, and he had no ought to bear a better interest than 31 scruple to avow, that he thought it a per cent. He was a friend to economy, handsome gift on the part of the country. but one or two hundred thousand pounds
Mr. l'ox remarked, that if the scale bore was a trifling consideration, where the nahard on Mr. Harford, he was glad to find, tional justice was pledged. if it must fall any where, that it would fall Mr. Wilmot rejoiced that the stage of on those who possessed the largest property, the inquiry was come, when the loyalists and who could consequently best bear the were to receive the ultimate settlement of blow. It was, however, a hardship on their claims, and he thought the proposiMr. Harford, and he would show the right tions liberal, although he owned he had hon. gentleman where it arose from a de- ever expected, that what the commissioners parture from the strictness of his own prin- reported, was to be the amount of the ciple. The right hon. gentleman had said, sums paid to the loyalists.
Sir M. W. Ridley persisted in his , in coming to the House, by a door being endeavours to procure an enlargement of shut at the top of the stone stair case, the sum to be allowed Mr. Harford, de- | which door was refused to be opened by claring that he thought 50,0001. but a one of the door-keepers attending this paltry compensation for his loss, and the House, Mr. Thomas Baker, the said
door-keeper, was called in and examined gone over to America and spent 13,0001. | in relation thereto; and having informed of his English fortune in endeavouring to the House, that the said door was kept recover bis estates across the Atlantic. shut by order of the deputy great cham
Mr. Windhan saw no advantage in ad- | berlain, during the time of the procession hering strictly to the right hon. gentle of the Lords from the House of Lords to man's scale in respect to Mr. Harfrod, Westminster-hall; he was directed to because, according to the scale, if carried withdraw. up to the possible extent of a very large Ordered, that the further consideration sum, the claimant for the largest sum of the matter of the said complaint be ad would be found to receive the smallest journed till to-morrow; and that sir Peter compensation.
Burrell, deputy great chamberlain of Mr. Fox strengthened Mr. Windham's England, a member of this House, be argument, and showed that Mr. Pitt's then desired to attend in his place. scale did not operate equitably betwen the claimant of a large sum and the claimant 1 June 11. Mr. Elphinstone, after shortly of a smaller, the latter having, out of all stating his complaint of being prevented sort of proportion, the advantage. If the from entering the passage leading to the right hon. gentleman had traced his rule House by two men placed on the outside regularly, it would have given Mr. Har. of the door, and by Mr. Baker, the doorford more than 50,0001. and surely, if the keeper, who, on being asked by wbat aurule laid down was in his favour, if regu- thority they refused admittance, had anlarly traced, it was hard he should have swered, that it was by order of sir Peter any part of his fortune withheld because Burrell, who had given them strict directhe right hon. gentleman had not traced it tions to suffer no person whatever to pass regularly. Mr. Fox again pointed out during the procession of the peers to the how the scale ought to have been traced | Hall, moved that the complaint which he admitting that had it been so traced, he had made upon the preceding day might should have increased the per centage at be read. different stages of the gross demand, in The Clerk having read the said comproportion as it swelled or increased. plaint, the Speaker asked sir Peter Bur
Mr. Pitt said, that he could not then rell, whether the door-keeper, in refusing trace Mr. Fox's scale correctly, but he admittance to the members, had done so found it would probably amount to 90,0001. in consequence of any orders given by instead of 50,0001. He owned that him? 90,0001. was more than he thought ought! Sir Peter Burrell answered, that the to be given, and as the right hon. gentle- door-keeper had done no more than comman had contended that he should have ply with the instructions which he had increased the per-centage deduction gra- 1 given him, in consequence of the orders dually, in proportion as he considered the of the House of Lords, to keep the pas. increase of the demand, allowing for that sages and avenues to the court clear, sort of increase, it would make the me- during the procession of the peers. dium between 50,0001. and 90,0001, which | Lord Belgrave said, that, in fact, when was 70,0001, and to such a compensation the procession commenced, the members he did not mean to make the least ob- of that House ought to be in their place jection.
in the court in Westminster-hall, 'with This proposition giving satisfaction to their Speaker, it was therefore a neglect all sides of the House, the resolution, as of duty in any member to be passing beamended, was agreed to..
tween the House and the court when the
procession was in its way thither. Complaint respecting Members being in | Mr. Elphinstone considered the preterrupted in coming to the House.] June venting a member of that House from 10. Mr. Elphinstone having made a having, at all times during its sitting, free complaint to the House, that several admittance, à breach of their rights and members had been interrupted this day privileges. He meant no reflection on sir Peter Burrell, for whom he had the seconding the motion of the noble lord, highest respect, by the complaint which whose conduct that day had given him he had made ; but, understanding that great satisfaction, and whom he hoped he the order originated with the Lords, he should have the pleasure to hear often. conceived it lois duty to make a complaint / Sir James Johnstone did not see why upon the least infraction of the rights of the trial could not proceed as it had the Commons
done hitherto, without new rules and reLord Newhaven contended, that neither gulations. No obstruction had been be. the great chamberlain, nor any other offi fore complained of, and he hoped no cause cer acting under the orders of the House for farther complaint would arise. of Lords, should be permitted to direct! Mr. Vyner said, that he should have any of their door-keepers,
. no objection to the motion of adjourning' Sir Joseph Mawbey maintained, that no the consideration of the complaint, if he person on earth ought to prevent the was not afraid that it would stand upon members from having free ingress and the Journals, that the members had been egress to and from their own House. If, obstructed in passing to their own House, therefore, it was inconvenient to the Lords in consequence of an order of the House of for them to pass through the ordinary Lords. To prevent members from coming passages during the progress of the pro- | to the House at any part of the day, to cession of peers, other entrances into the examine papers, or to go to any ComHouse ought to be opened for the conve. mittee that might be supposed sitting, was nience of the members. He saw no sort undoubtedly a breach of their privileges, of necessity for such a strictness as had and ought not to be passed over, when it been adopted. He had himself repeat was expressly stated to have been com.' : edly come too late to join the House be- mitted in consequence of an order of the fore it proceeded to the Hall, and had not House of Lords. If the Lords could preexperienced any difficulty in getting into vent the members from going to their own the Hall, by watching for a fit opportu. House, they could shut the door up altonity to shove in among the Lords, and gether. Thinking, therefore, that the get to this place. There were intervals in cause of complaint was more serious than the procession of the Peers, that might it might appear to other gentlemen, he easily be taken advantage of, without the must not only oppose the motion, but take smallest inconvenience to the Lords, or the sense of the House upon it. to any person whatever. He could not, The House divided on lord Belgrave's therefore, but have wished, that no cause , motion : Yeas, 41; Noes, 15. of complaint had been given, or that it / Lord Newhaven, as soon as the House had not been noticed to the House ; yet, was resumed, desired to know who was as it had been stated, it was impossible the proper officer to communicate the for the House to pass it over without some orders of the House to the doorkeepers. sort of animadversion, which he hoped The Speaker said, the Serjeant at Arms. would be as slight as possible, and the Lord Newhaven then read a motion, the least offensive to the deputy great cham. purport of which was, that the Serjeant at berlain, who certainly had merited the ap- | Arms do inform the doorkeepers that they probation of all, for his attention to his obey no orders whatever but such as shall duty during the whole time of the court's be delivered to them by him in person. sitting.
The Speaker observing the House very Lord Belgrave said, that so far from thin, reminded his lordship, that he might intending to move any thing hard upon with greater propriety make his motion the subject, he should move to put off the upon the morrow. Lord Newhaven acfarther consideration of the complaint till quiesced. that day three months. · Mr. F. Montagu said, that those gen- June 12. Sir P. Burrell rose in contlemen who were so anxious to preserve sequence of an intended motion, relative to the privileges of the House, were un- the trial of Mr. Hastings. He said, he doubtedly entitled to their thanks. It could most sincerely assure the House, became every member to be jealous on that no member felt a more anxious desire such a subject; but after what he had to preserve the privileges of the House heard, and after having witnessed the than himself; nor would any man go faractive real and attention of the deputy (ther to prevent their being infringed; at great chamberlain, he could not forbear the same time, he must be allowed to say,