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and as by next session they would know men's breaths were the same. He had whether it came on or not, he thought it heard severe things from many ministers far more advisable to wait till then ; and who sat in the place which the right hon. the more especially, since by going into it gentleman filled, but he had suffered more under those circumstances, they would from the offensive and foul breath of the break through a principle allowed to be a right hon. gentleman, than from that of good one, and by putting it off, they any minister that had gone before him. would be able to go into it in future with The hon gentleman over the way had more accuracy. The right hon. gentle- | boasted of sitting in as good company as man had said that that House was not a ever he did. That was a bold word. The prison; a strong argument, in his mind, marquis of Rockingham, Mr. Dowdeswell, for not going into the consideration of the the Duke of Portland, and Mr. Fox, were charge. If the House had been a prison, not easily matched. they might have some hopes of being able Mr. Pitt answered, that he thought he to detain the members, and force them to never had heard a proposition more disattend the consideration; the case being tinctly laid down, than when he had heard otherwise, in all probability, if the charge the right hon. gentleman say, the East came on, they would have to look for India Company had requested, that their their members at the distance of four being obliged to give security to refer hundred miles from those walls. He the sentence in the Patna cause to the could not, however, believe that gentle- privy council, might be inserted in the men were serious in wishing to go into an Act of 1781. The right hon. gentleman inquiry, which it would be impossible for had complained of his treatment of him. them to finish at that advanced period of In the heat of debate, a warm expression the session. The right hon. gentleman might escape him; and it must be acknow. himself had too many avocations, avo- ledged, that the right hon. gentleman cations that were both honourable and being himself remarkably guarded, and useful, to wish to go into it. . cautious of saying any thing to offend · Mr. Burke begged leave to contradict others, was peculiarly justified in taking a right, hon. gentleman, who had sup. | offence at any thing rather harsh that was posed him to have admitted, that the said of himself. With regard to the minisCompany had requested to have the obli- ters who sat where he did, he had not gation upon them to give security for re- heard so many ministers as the right hon. ferring the sentence to the privy council, gentleman, and therefore he could not reinserted in the Act of 1781. He had said member what severe things they had said no such thing, but the contrary, affirming to him, but the right hon. gentleman had that it had not been desired by the Com- given sufficient proof that he had forgotten pany, nor by that House, but by the the severe things that he had himself said highest authority, the lord Chancellor, at to ministers. whose express request he had inserted the Mr. Burke answered, that he would obligation on the Company in the Bill. plead guilty to the charge of having neiMr. Burke desired the right hon. gentle-ther been malicious in the first instance, man, who had proved so bad an historian, nor vindictive in the second. not to take upon himself the office of being The question was at length put, and his historian; declaring that he had rather negatived. It was then moved, and cartrust to the Public Advertiser, the Morn- ried, “ That this House will, upon this day ing Chronicle, or the Morning Post, as three months, resolve itself into the said reporters of his speeches, though he did / Committee. not consider them as the most faithful records. He complained of the right hon. Debate in the Commons on Lord Newgentleman's treatment of him, and said, burgh's Estate Bill.] June 2. The Petition the oppression of great parts and great of lord Newburgh having been referred to powers was too much to be borne. It re. a Committee of the whole House, minded him of a story of a Roman lady, Sir Herbert Mackworth observed, that who had married a man with a bad breath, the subject was so well known to the and when he was dead, the widow was House, that he need not trouble the Comasked how she could bear to live so long | mittee with any discussion of it, but would with a man who had a foul breath? The merelymove « That the House be moved for lady, who was a virgin when she married, leave to bring in a Bill to allow ford New. had said, in reply, that she thought all / burgh 25001. a-year out of the rents and

profits of the Derwentwater estate, situated Alderman Newnham said, that Greenin Cumberland, Northumberland, and part wich Hospital had ever been with him a of Scotland."

| favourite foundation; he considered it a Mr. For reminded the Committee, that national benefit, and one that every man it was four or five years since parliament who wished well to the navy, the natural had interposed its authority in favour of | bulwark of the kingdom, ought to supseveral families, whose estates had been port. He could not, therefore, approve forfeited in consequence of their ancestors of saddling the fund of Greenwich Hos. having joined in the rebellion; that he had, pital with the 2,5001, a year. He conat the time, endeavoured to call their ceived lord Newburgh's case to be oppresattention to the case of lord Newburgh, sive, and had not the smallest objection which was certainly extremely hard, and to granting him the sum proposed; but which he had then observed, deserved if the annuity ought to be granted, his the attention of the House as much as opinion was, that it ought to be paid that of any other family, however respec. out of the public purse. He hoped that table. As the sum now proposed to be the Bill, if the annuity was to be charged given was extremely moderate, he thought upon Greenwich Hospital, would contain the least that could be done, would be to a pledge, that no farther claims should put his lordship on the same footing, in ever be made upon it on a similar acpoint of time, with those families who had count. received back their estates, and therefore Sir Herbert Mackworth did not con., he trusted that there would be no objec-ceive it possible for those who might bring tion to letting the annuity commence four in the Bill to insert any pledge in it, or five years back.

that no farther claim should be made on Sir James Johnstone reprobated the the Derwentwater estate. Their object severe custom of withholding the property was, to secure an annuity of 2,5001. to of any family, on account of the conduct of the present lord Newburgh. their ancestors in a cause with which they Alderman Newnham contended, that it had no concern. The Pretender was now was highly necessary that the House dead, and all fear of the renewal of any should either pay the annuity out of the question on right to the Crown at an end. public purse, or give the Hospital its

Mr. Pitt said, that no one could be quietus, as to any subsequent claims. That more ioclined than he was, to go as far as subsequent claims might be made, was possible for the advantage of the noble lord more than probable. Indeed the House in question, as he considered his case an had already heard of one on the account extremely hard one. He thought they / of some female relations of lord Newmight fairly fix the commencement of the burgh. If the House wished to deal ge. annuity at a period somewhat earlier than nerously by his lordship, they ought to the present; but three or four years arrears deal justly by the Hospital. When a inan appeared to him too large a sum to levy gave away what was his own, he was geon a public charity, and as he understood nerous ; but not when he gave away the the motion must specifically state the property of others. The Derwentwater whole of the sum to be allowed, he wished estate was the property of Greenwich the hop. baronet to withdraw it for the Hospital; a property conveyed by act of present and make it on the morrow, in parliament; and therefore the House had order to allow time for consideration. no right to make a farther disposal of it. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. / Mr. M. A. Taylor approved of the

worthy magistrate's objection, though, at June 3. The House having resolved the same time, he believed lord Newitself into a Committee on lord New burgh's case so hard, as to deserve imburgh's Petition, sir Herbert Mackworth mediate attention. Greenwich Hospital, moved, “ That leave be given to bring in he had reason to believe, was at present a Bill for charging several estates in the by no means in a state to spare any con. counties of Northumberland, Cumber- / siderable sum out of its revenue. Their land, Durham, &c. with a clear rent expenditure had of late been great, and charge of 2,500l., payable to the grand the charge incurred by their having to reson of the late Charles Ratcliffe, the right build their chapel, in consequence of the hon. Anthony James earl of Newburgh, | late fire, was so large as materially to and the heirs male of his body, to come have diminished their sum in hand. mence from the 25th day of March 1787." Sir James Johnstone said, that it had

been his constant opinion, that lord New- 1 justing every question of the sort, the burgh had a right to his whole estate, only fit way of proceeding was to govern and therefore if he was willing to accept what was to be done by some principle or an annuity of 2,500l. a year in lieu of it, other, and not to make the motion arbi. the House ought to consider it as a trary, as accident or caprice directed. good bargain for the public. With regard What principle, then, could be taken as to the withholding the estate of lord a guide in the present instance? In the Newburgli, and of other descendants of first place, it must be admitted, that lord Scotch peers, on account of their prede- Newburgh had no legal claim of any sort cessors political conduct long ago, it was on the public; still, however, he was extremely hard ; indeed so hard, that he ready to say, that although his case was had never heard of anything equal to by no means similar to those to which it it, except the damning all mankind, be- had been compared, it had in some recause Eve, our great grandmother, eat an spects sufficient similarity to entitle it to apple.

be considered as a hard one, and to induce Mr. Jolliffe declared, that the charging him to consent to the relief that was the annuity upon Greenwich Hospital, proposed. Feeling it to stand in that appeared to him to be ridiculous, because respect, what were they to look to ? No he thought either the whole of the estate man would contend, that the present inof his ancestors should be restored to come of the Derwentwater estates was lord Newburg!, or the public ought to to be taken as the principle. It must be grant him the annuity themselves. What remembered, that the estates of lord he principally rose for was, to move an Newburgh's ancestors consisted of two amendment to the motion. There was a parts: the one, estates, that had they not lady living (an aunt of lord Newburgh) been forfeited, would have been his lordupon very scanty means, which, narrow ship's in right of strict settlement; the other, as they were, she derived from the bounty estates from all claim to which he had of the king of France. That, he thought, been barred, in consequence of the ques. ought not to be the case; and as he was tion of alienage having been decided well assured lord Newburgh would allow against him. In regard to the former, his aunt whatever addition the Committee it was to be considered, that the estates might think proper to make to his pro- had been greatly improved since they had posed annuity, which had been stated to been in the hands of the governors of be extremely moderate, he meant to move Greenwich Hospital, who had expended an addition to the sum proposed ; but in nearly 80,0001. upon them, in order to order to obviate the possibility of objec- render them as valuable as they were at tion, he should only move for a single present. They had also laid out consi. 1001. to be added to it, and that instead derable sums to discharge the incumof 2,5001. be inserted 2,6001. per annum. brances upon them at the time of their

Mr. Fox said, that as he could not help forfeiture, and had likewise paid 30,0001. thinking the annuity proposed extremely granted to the ancestors of the present moderate, and short of what ought to | lord Newburgh. These several sums, have been granted, he should of course therefore, must all be deducted from the vote for the amendment.

value of the estate, and then what reMr. Pitt trusted that the right hon. mained would be found to be the rents gentleman would excuse him, if he im- that lord Newburgh might reasonably puted what he had just said, to his wish claim. These considerations had govern. to take every possible opportunity of ed him, in consenting to the present mo. showing his desire that lord Newburgh tion, which was grounded on the princishould be still more amply provided for ple that he had laid down. As to any inthan was proposed, rather than to his crease of the sum settled, because an conviction of the propriety of the amend- hon, member, without showing any ground ment; because he was persuaded if he for such an assertion, loosely said, that if had considered the amendment with the lord Newburgh had any addition made, acuteness that he generally applied to he would give that addition to another such matters, he must have seen that it person, upon whom no part of the estate ought not to pass. Mr. Pitt declared, had been entalled, and who had no claim that no man would more readily agree upon the public whatever, he never would to any fair proposition in favour of lord consent to such an addition; it was a de. Newburgh than he would. But, in ad parture from every thing like a principle, and the Committee might with as much ) a plea of the wants of Greenwich Hospi. reason vote any other sum as 2,6001. If | tal, refuse to do an act of justice to lord a case in favour of the lady could be made Newburgh.« out, let the House vote her an allowance The question, “ That 2,5001. stand part distinctly and separately; but he knew of of the question," was then put, and carried. no such case. - Mr. Fox answered, that he really had Debate in the Commons on the Compensupported the amendment, because he sation to the American Loyalists.] June 6. thought the sum moved for, fell short of | The House being in a Committee on the what it ought to amount to, and because Bill “ for appointing commissioners furhe considered it as reasonable to enable ther to inquire into the losses and services lord Newburgh to make a better provi- of all such persons who have suffered in sion for his distressed relation than he their rights, properties, and professions, otherwise would be enabled to do. Though during the late unhappy dissentions in he perfectly agreed with the right hon. America, in consequence of their loyalty gentleman, that it would be better to go to his Majesty, and attachment to the vern what was done by any principle, no ) British government,” matter what, rather than let it depend on Mr. Pitt rose. He said that he con. the favour or fancy of the moment, yet he ceived no dissimilarity of opinion would be did not think that sufficient attention had found to affect the principle of the business been paid to lord Newburgh's claims upon to which he meant to call the attention of the public. No man could deny that the the Committee, although, perhaps, some money laid out on the estates by Green- | difference of sentiment might be enterwich Hospital on their improvement, the tained as to the mode and distinctions money spent in paying off incumbrances which he should consider it his duty to upon the estate at the time of the for- propose, in order to carry the principle feiture, and the 30,0001. granted to the into effect. · What he had to submit to the ancestor of lord Newburgh, were all to be consideration of the Committee was, the deducted from the value of the estate; satisfaction to be made to the American but still there was something like a claim loyalists, for the final liquidation and adto be allowed in respect to the other justment of their claims, on account of estates, those to which lord Newburgh's losses sustained by them in consequence claim was legally barred by the decision of their adherence to this country during of the question of alienage. Every man the late American war. The American who knew any thing of landed estates in loyalists, in his opinion, could not call upon this country, knew that a landed estate of the House to make compensation for their 2,5001. a year, was infinitely preferable to losses as a matter of strict justice; but an annuity of 2,5001. It was not merely they, most undoubtedly, had strong claims the income that the land carried with it : on their generosity and compassion. In every gentleman knew, it carried with it the mode, therefore, that he should proa variety of other advantages, and, in the pose for finally adjusting their claims, he case in question, very considerable pa- | had laid down a principle with a view to tronage. These were, undoubtedly, cir- mark this distinction ; and had adhered to cumstances of material consideration. it throughout the various quotas of comWith regard to the aunt of lord Newburgh pensation that he should propose to be having no legal claim, surely it would be made to the various classes of loyalists, the admitted, that every head of a family pos- more clearly to ascertain and establish it. sessed of a considerable estate, was looked Having premised this, Mr. Pitt stated the up to by the younger branches for sup- different descriptions of loyalists who had port and assistance, if they needed either. preferred their claims before the commisIf lord Newburgh or his ancestor had held sioners appointed to inquire into American the estate in their own hands, in all proclaims, and divided them into four classes. bability their aunt would not have been in the first class, he considered and ranked involved in such distress and poverty as all those who had resided in America at she had experienced for a number of the commencement of the war, and who, years.

in pursuance of their principles of loyalty Mr. Whitbread said, if Greenwich Hos- | and adherence to this country, were pital was poor, and wanted assistance, let obliged to abandon their estates and their the House vote a grant of 5,0001, and give property in America, which were, in conit to the Hospital, but let them not, on sequence, seized and confiscated by the (VOL. XXVII.]

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Americans. The mode he meant to adopt | 100,0001. and so on in proportion. It with respect to this class of loyalists, whom happened, that the highest of the claims he considered as the most deserving, and of this class under 50,0001. was one of as having the strongest claims of any de- | 23,0001.; and above that, there was no scription of loyalists, would be to pay other, except the claim of Mr. Harford, those, whose claims were so small, that which was, as it stood liquidated by the any deduction from them would materially commissioners, 210,0001. Applying, thereaffect their means of existence with any fore, this scale to the claim of Mr. Harsort of comfort, the full amount of their ford, the sum to be paid to him, after the claims. He should propose, therefore, to several deductions, would be found to be pay all such loyalists whose claims did not 50,0001., which, considering all the ciramount to more than 10,0001. whatever cumstances of the case, was, he thought, their claims should amount to, and to a very handsome compensation for that deduct 15 per cent. from all that their House to make. But Mr. Harford, he claim.s should amount to, over and above understood, had two other claims upon the first 10,0001., if under 30,0001. and an America, for debts of 10,0001. each. He additional per-centage if from 30,0001. to meant, therefore, that Mr. Harford should 50,000/.' He assigned as a reason of pro- | receive the full amount of those sums.posing that the 15 per-centage should be The next class of claimants, were those deducted from the excess only of the loyalists, who, having either enjoyed places, loyalists claims over and above the first or exercised professions in America, bad, 10,0001., that if such a rule were not laid by being driven away in consequence of down, and the 15 per cent. were deducted their loyalty to this country, lost their from the first 10,0001., it might happen incomes. With regard to these, it was to that those claimants, whose claims amount- be considered, that though they had been ed to a trifling sum above 10,0001. would driven from America, they were able to receive a less compensation than those obtain fresh incomes in this country, by whose claims, though they did not amount exercising their talents and their industry to quite 10,0001., amounted to very near in different ways; he should not, therethat sum- The next class of claimants fore, propose to give them equal incomes included those who having resided in to those they had been deprived of, by England during the war, had exhibited way of pension, but was of opinion, that claims on the score of the loss of property they ought to consider themselves as libein America. These certainly had not the rally dealt by, if all who had been deprived merit of the former class, because they of incomes, not amounting to more than could not pretend that they had been 4001. a year, were put upon half pay; and driven from America, but had made their | others, whose incomes in America had option ; and it was natural to suppose, amounted higher, (and some, he said, that they chose that, which, in point of amounted as high as 1,5001. a year, and advantage and satisfaction, was the best one as high as 3,0001.) should be paid 401. for themselves. At the same time, how per cent. for every 100l. of such income ever, that this remark was necessary, he above 4001., where the value does not exwas far from thinking, that, because they | ceed 1,500l. per annum in the whole; and chose to remain in England, and protect where the value does exceed 1,5001. per their property here, they were not entitled annum in the whole, then in the proporto expect some compensation from that tion of 301. per cent. for every 1001. ex. House for the loss of their property in ceeding 4001. per annum.-With respect America. They undoubtedly were ; and to the West Florida claimants, he should he should propose, in like manner as he propose to pay them the full amount of had proposed with respect to the former their claims, because they stood in a very class, that all the claimants of this second different predicament from the American description, whose claims were under claimants, having, io consequence of a 10,000%. in amount, should be paid in full; peace, which ceded Florida to another but that, from all whose claims amounted power, and which that House had agreed from 10,0001. to 30,0001., a deduction to, been obliged to quit their habitations should be made of 20 per cent. and a far- and property in West Florida. Having her deduction of 20 per cent. from all explained these several points, and stated whose claims amounted to above 30,0001. that the total amount of claims was two and under 50,0001.; and a still farther millions odd hundred thousand pounds, deduction from all above 50,0006. up to exclusive of the 4 or 500,0001. that had

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