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right hon. gentleman was exceedingly sore, cessity, therefore, of moving for a more or he never would have resorted to so un particular account; but when he did so, warrantable a mode of argument, as the he wished it to be understood, that he did declaring that he understood the subject not move it for the purpose of grounding of the Slave Trade inuch better than he any censure whatever, nor did he mean to (Mr. Fox) did, and that he had dedicated insinuate any charge or suspicion against more hours to the examination of it. Of the managers, of having exceeded their his own industry, undoubtedly the right bounds or done wrong in any shape whathon. gentleman could speak with confi- ever. He then moyed, " That ihere be dence ; but how he was enabled to judge laid before this House, a particular acof the degree of industry that he (Mr. count of the expenditure of the money Fox) possessed, or of the attention that he advanced to Messrs. Wallis and Troward, had paid to the subject, or of the number solicitors for the prosecution against Warof hours that he had dedicated to the ex- ren Hastings, esq. and of such other examination of it, he was at a loss to imagine. penses and charges as have been incurred He did not much suspect that there were by the said solicitors on account of the many persons about him that were spies said prosecution, to the 15th of May 1788, upon his actions, and he presumed that he inclusive, stating specifically to whom and had at least as many leisure hours as the on what account such sums have been is. right hon. gentleman. The right hon. sued.” gentleman had declared that no clamour Sir. W. Dolben said, that as the motion or affectation of warmth should make him related to a matter of great public imporgo one step beyond the line he had, on tance, and as it was expressly stated, that Friday last, prescribed on the subject of the it was not made with a view to censure Slave Trade. How far affectation of warmth any past transaction, but rather to excite made part of his character, Mr. Fox said he caution in respect to the future, he would leave the Committee to judge, as begged leave to second it. well as of the degree in which affectation of Mr. M. A. Taylor having declared himwarmth was imputable to the right hon. self astonished, that after so much pregentleman; but he should still adhere to paration a more serious motion had not the argument, that the resolution of Fri- been introduced, added, that he considered day last, relative to the Slave Trade, stood the motion as an indirect mode of convey. precisely on the same ground that the reso- | ing a censure on the conduct of the malution about to be proposed would stand. nagers, and brought forward with a view
The Committee divided on the question, to lead to an attempt to put an end to the That the Chairman do leave the chair: prosecution. If it was made with any Yeas, 104; Noes, 39. The House being re- such intention, he wished those who were sumed, it was resolved nem. con. “ That desirous of putting an end to the prosecu. this House will, early in the next session tion, would, in a manly way, avow their of parliament, proceed to take into consi- purpose. The House would then have the deration the matters of the said petitions, proposition fairly before them, and would and what may be fit to be done thereupon.” know in what manner they ought to decide
upon it. With regard to the account Debate on the Expences attending the moved for, he cared not how minutely the Trial of Mr. Hastings.] May 20. Mr. particulars were stated, nor what inquiry Burges being called upon from all sides of was grounded upon it. He knew a great the House, rose and observed, that when many false rumours were in circulation for the purpose of information solely, he with a view to load the committee of had moved some few days since, for an managers with every possible degree of account of the charges incurred by the odium. He, as one of the managers, had trial of Mr. Hastings, he little imagined been gravely told in public company, that he should hare had occasion to make a he dined every day in the most sumptuous second motion upon the subject, but the manner at the expense of his constituents. account that had been laid upon the table He declared he knew of no such dinners, consisted merely of four or five general and he wished the public to rest assured, heads, and in fact, afforded no sort of that there was not the smallest ground for satisfactory information. It was intituled any such idle report. He had taken a part in indeed " A particular Account," but its the prosecution from a consciousness of the particularity consisted in its giving no criminality of Mr. Hastings, and he was departiculars at all; he was under the ne- termined to persevere in endeavouring to bring him to justice under every diffi- , from the votes the resolution to pay above culty that could be thrown in his way. 40001. for defraying the charges incurred With regard to the expenses incurred, by the prosecution carried on against sir they were trivial, and not worth mention- Thomas Rumbold. He said, he had no ing, in comparison with the greatness of doubt but that charge had been fairly and the object to be attained. That part of justly made out, but he had never heard, them which related to the sums paid to That the House had thought it necessary to council, for their assistance,were so far from institute a minute inquiry into the various being enormously large, that they were, on items of the account. In the present prothe contrary, shamefully inadequate to the secution, the managers were responsible services performed; he never knew counsel for ordering the services, but the manner so ill paid for such services; and when he in which those services were performed, made that declaration, he begged the was to be decided on elsewhere; and House to consider him as speaking to a therefore, as that part of the business subject, of which he had some knowledge which was the only one the hon. gentlefrom experience.
man could refer to, lay between the soli. Mr. Sheridan observed, that he felt citors for the prosecution, and the lords of some difficulty to avoid being astonished, the Treasury, the hon. gentleman instead of that the hon. manager should liave giving the newspapers a fresh subject for thought the hon. gentleman's anxious unwarrantable insinuations, if he meant desire to watch over and scrutinize the any thing by his motion, would, he hoped, expenses of the prosecution of Mr. Hast. when the account should be produced, ings, matter of amazement, when it was ground upon it another motion, that the considered how frequently the hon. gen- counsel employed by the committee of tleman attended to the expenditure of managers should in future be better paid. the public money, and how peculiarly Mr. Hussey wished to have it underwatchful he was over the grants of stood, whether the managers were reslarge sums moved from time to time by ponsible for the charges incurred by the the Treasury! He considered the true prosecution or not. motive of the hon. gentleman to be no Mr. Fox answered, that the managers other than this; he had made his motion were, undoubtedly, responsible for the serwith a view to afford a ground for the ap- | vices ordered, but not for the manner in pearance of idle paragraphs in the news which those services were performed. It papers, insinuating that the managers lay with the Treasury to examine, check, were putting the public to an enormous and control, the expenditure of the money and unnecessary expense, and by that issued to defray the charges incurred by means to create a wish in the public for the prosecution. The managers had the the total discontinuance of the trial. The authority of that House to take such measervices already performed were ordered sures, and do everything that appeared to by the committee of managers, under the them to be necessary to conduct the proauthority of that House. If the House secution in the most effectual manner; chose, they might resolve that no counsel but, even in the exercise of the powers should, in future, be allowed the managers; I given them by that authority, they were if so, it would be necessary for them to very ready to pay great deference to the move, that the attorney and solicitor- / advice of those, who, from their situations, general, together with the master of the must necessarily have great weight and rolls, be added to the committee of ma. authority in that House. nagers. Or, if the House thought proper, Mr. Pitt said, that the managers certhey might resolve, that the managers tainly were authorized to order any sershould pay the expenses of counsel them- vices which they thought necessary, and selves. In that case he hoped the House it was not in the power of the Treasury to would have the goodness to add sir / countermand those services, their proSampson Gideon, and some others of the vince being merely to take care that the most wealthy members to the committee. charges for those services were not enorWith regard to the charges incurred by mous and unreasonable. In order to do fees to counsel, it was considering the as- this, when the proper time came for the sistance afforded, shamefully low ; so much solicitors to the prosecution to stale the so, that he would venture to say no counsel particular items of their accounts, they employed in a great public prosecution certainly would take the best means in had ever been so ill paid before. He read their power, by referring the accounts to the examination of the solicitors of the measure, he would venture to say, was Treasury, to prevent the public from being unprecedented, and in no great public overcharged. At present the House would prosecution had such a measure ever been recollect, that the sums issued were issued attempted or dreamt of. With regard to on account merely, and therefore such a the charges already incurred, his private reference and examination of particulars opinion was, that the cause had been could not take place. He thought it starved. So far from any unnecessary right that the House should have the ac- | expense having been gone into, he was count moved for, because if they should persuaded much use might have resulted be of opinion that any of the services or- from still greater expenses, had the Comdered already were unnecessary, they mittee thought the circumstances that would have it in their power to direct that characterised the prosecution such as no more such services should take place in would have rendered it prudent in them future, and that the House would see was to have incurred greater expenses. He a power which rested with themselves only, reminded gentlemen of the particular conand which the board of treasury could not stitution, temper, and sentiments of the exercise. With respect to the charges | House in regard to the prosecution. A already incurred, he was far from meaning large and indeed a most decided and reto suggest that any unnecessary services spectable majority of the House had voted had been ordered, or that any expense the impeachment, and voted a committee could be too great to be incurred, that of managers with great powers, but not was really likely to conduce to the object greater than were absolutely necessary to in question.
render the prosecution effectua). But Mr. Fox said, the right hon. gentleman | there was notoriously a considerable Indian had taken what he conceived to be pre- | party in the House, friends of Mr. Hastcisely the fair distinction, and therefore, ings, and many of them acting upon moin his mind, the House had before them tives of personal interest, who had shown already the only account that was neces- themselves adverse to the prosecution. sary for them to look to, an account of the He was far from meaning to insinuate services ordered. A more minute ac- , that they might not have been adverse to count could only be an account of the the prosecution from motives perfectly particulars of the manner in which those honourable, but the fact was as he had services had been performed, which was stated it. There was another set of genthe sort of account that must ultimately | tlemen who had voted against the prose. be submitted to the Board of Treasury for cution on principle, and because they their investigation. Mr. Fox said, he thought such a prosecution, under all the never was more surprised, than at the circumstances, ought not to have taken smallness of the amount of the expenses place. This latter description of gentleincurred.
men certainly were to be respected. But Mr. Burke declared, that as far as re- such being the known divisions of the garded himself, he had not the smallest ob- House, it behoved the managers to act jection to every minute item of the charges with extreme caution, and to take care incurred by the prosecution being made so to conduct themselves as not to give as public as possible, but there were just cause of offence, or of solid objection, grounds of argument extremely forcible to either of the parties alluded to. This and extremely obvious, that would prove had been their rule, and had it not rigidly the present motion to be in the highest been adhered to, much larger expenses degree improper and unwise. The House might have been incurred, and incurred had solemnly determined, that Mr. Hast usefully to the prosecution. Secret ser. ings should be impeached, they had ap- vices, for instance, might have made a pointed a Committee of managers, and large head of expense, and if gentlemen armed them with a variety of powers, 1 gave themselves time for reflection, they above all, directing them to act as a would see that in a prosecution of the Secret Committee, and now in the pro nature of that in question, there might be gress of that very proceeding which they much occasion for secret services. Mr. were to conduct in the manner that, upon Burke animadverted on sir W. Dolben's secret consultation, should appear to them having ventured to second a motion, with most advisable, was the House about to the true grounds of which he could not demand a public disclosure of all the pri- | possibly be acquainted. The charge inyate grounds of their conduct. Such a curred was enormous or inconsiderable, in proportion to the greatness or littleness censure or deserved approbation, without of the services performed. They only having sufficient information before him who had directed them, and saw the de to enable him to judge whether they de. gree of effect they had operated, could served either? He had no scruple to alone judge of their importance. The say, that he had his doubts whether one Committee having the business in their part of the general charge, namely, the hands, knew them to be great, and knew suns expended by the solicitors for the the charges incurred to be proportionably prosecution, did not amount to more than trifing and inconsiderable. The Com- ought to have been so expended. When mittee were responsible for those services, a particular account should be before the or rather he was responsible, as the lead. | House, if it should appear to him that ing member of that Committee, and he censure was merited, the right hon. genmeant not, in the smallest degree, to tleman opposite should not find him shrink shrink from his responsibility or shelter from the question ; nor should any thing himself behind the Committee, for con- that any member might say intimidate duct undoubtedly his own, and for which him from doing what he might think to he was and ought to be peculiarly respon- / be his duty, sible. The hon. baronet had said, he Mr. Burke declared, that he did not seconded the motion, because it was not mean to intimidate the hon. gentleman by moved with a view to censure of the past, any thing he had said, and that he was but of caution for the future, If it was perfectly indifferent, as far as concerned pecessary to give caution for the future, himself, as to any future proceeding that there must have arisen some occasion for might be grounded on the account moved that caution, which implied, that the for; but he could not help remarking upon Committee of managers had acted in a the extraordinary cireumstance of the manner in which they ought not to have professed friend of Mr. Hastings calling acted. For his part, he rejected the prof- for an account of the expense incurred by fered caution. He would take no more the prosecution, at the very moment that caution than he had done. He acted one of the strongest charges was so closely to the best of his judgment, and he was griping the delinquent, that he saw it conscious that he was responsible for his impossible for him to escape. He had no conduct.
objection personally to the production of Mr. Hussey saw no reason for the mo- the account, but he warned the House, tion. Was 8,0001. too much, considering that they were about to establish a precethe importance of the prosecution) He dent full of danger, and likely to cover had heard no suspicion of lavish or im- him with much disgrace. provident conduct in the Committee of Sir Peter Burreli wished to be informed managers insinuated. When the business whether the hop. member deşired to have was at an end, he should expect the money a strict account of every particle of the issued to be strictly accounted for, but expense laid before the House, If this not before.
was the case, he thought it highly dangeMr. Fox said, the House would recol rous to the prosecution, to disclose to the lect, that no ground had been stated for defendant all the proceedings of his prosethe motion, but that, on the contrary, all cutors, Doubtless, at the conclusion of intention to ground a censure was dis- the prosecution, a full statement of every ayowed. From what motive, therefore, expenditure on account of it ought to be were they to suppose the hon. gentleman rendered, but he was sure there was no made his motion ? It was not possible precedent to be found for producing a for the House to adopt it, in its present detail of particular charges pending the unexplained state, without pursuing a prosecution. conduct of which not one of its past pro: Mr. Pitt observed, that if any gentleceedings could furnish an example, man would really say, he apprehended
Mr. Burges said, that the motive that danger to the cause from producing the induced him to make the motion was, a account moved for, he would strenuously desire to obtain information. He had ex. oppose the motion, because he thought pressly stated, that he did not make the that a consideration infinitely beyond any motion in order to ground a censure advantage that could result from laying against the Committee of managers, or the paper on the table. But, if no danger any person whatever. How was it possi. nor material inconvenience could be stated ble for him to declare that they merited as likely to result from producing the
account, he thought it for the honour | May 30. Mr. Fos observed, that as a of the House and the honour of the ma particular account of the distributions of nagers,'to produce it; as it would, in fact, the sums expended, in consequence of if it turned out to be as gentlemen had the trial of Warrea Hastings esg, had been described, and which he had no reason before the House for some days, he wished to doubt it would turn out, prove the best i to know when the hon. gentleman who and most complete answer to all idle moved for the account, and said he had reports, and effectually prevent -the repe- doubts relative to a part of the general tition of any similar motions.
heads stated in the account, meant either Mr. Fof certainly saw to immediate to bring forward the said doubts, or danger in producing the account then declare whether they still left upon his moved for, but what struck him as the mind the same impression. matter to be guarded against was the esta. Mr. Burges answered, that in his humblishing a precedent that might be mis. ble opinion, he had sufficiently done his chievous in future. He reminded the duty in calling for the papers. They House, that no particular article in the were now before the House, and an general account on the table had been opportunity was open to every gentleman objected to.
to form his sentiments upon the subject. Mr. Burke was desirous of calling the What bis doubts were, he imagined must solicitors for the prosecution to the bar, suggest themselves to every gentleman to explain one or two points that he was who read the accounts, and therefore he sure would satisfy the House. The cha. Jeft to persons, who had more weight and racters of the solicitors were such as to authority in that House than he had, to place them above all suspicion of being take the matter up; but if no other person capable of acting dishonourably.
should, and the House should call upon Mr. Pitt said, it was the undoubted him to bring the subject forward, he was right of every member of that House to I perfectly ready to obey their commands. call for an account of the public expen- Mr. Sheridan observed, that the sort diture in every instance, and such account of way in which the matter had been ought to be granted, where neither dan- treated, was a little extraordinary. The ger nor inconvenience could be stated as hon. gentleman had, on a former day, likely to result from inquiry,
said, that he had his doubts upon one of Mr. Sheridan said, he would take down the heads of the general account, but that Mr. Pitt's declaration, that it was the un- he could not say whether those doubts doubted right of every member to call for were well founded or not, before he saw a an account of the piiblic expenditure in more particular statement of the items ; every instance, and that such accounts that particular statement had now been ought to be granted, in order to make use presented some days, and the hon. gentleof it on a future day.
man had just declared, he still entertained Mr. Pitt desired the hon. gentleman his doubts, but that he left it to other genwould also take down the condition of tlemen to move the discussion. Now he their being granted; which was, that wished the hon. gentleman would either neither inconvenience nor danger could act upon his doubts, or get some other be stated as likely to result from inquiry. gentleman to take his doubts up for him,
Mr. Burke remarked, that however the and act upon them. From what bad al. motion might prove inconvenient, and ready passed, the matter ought not to drop entail disgrace on the House, he was sure without a farther investigation. it would ultimately reflect honour on the Mr. Burges said that if the House managers, as it would prove, that for a thought that it was now more peculiarly most insignificant expense, they had by his province to bring the subject forward, their exertions. rendered their country he had not the smallest objection to take important and essential services.
the task upon him, and in that case, he The House divided :
believed the proper way would be either
to move that the papers be referred to a Mr. Burges • • • • 360
Committee of the whole House; or to Sir William Dolben
give notice of a day on which he would s Mr. Hussey ..
state his sentiments upon their contents. Noes 3 Mr. William Smith - .". Mr. Pitt rccommending the latter mode,
So it was resolved in the affirmative. Mr. Burges gave notice for the ensuing The managers withdrew without dividing. Friday.