same scene might be repeated, and the same plea of want of information urged. What must the gentlemen who had felt it to be their duty to agitate the question relative to the Slave Trade, and by so doing had awakened the humanity of the whole nation, think of the right hon. gentleman's declaration that day, that he would not be pledged by the resolution to go into the discussion? The resolution moved by the right hon. gentleman himself, on the preceding Friday, relative to the Slave Trade, must stand precisely on the same grounds with the resolution which his hon. friend had declared it to be his intention to move as soon as the House should be resumed. Was the right hon. gentleman desirous that the people of England, who had petitioned the House to take the state of the Slave Trade into their consideration, should understand that the resolution which the House had come to meant nothing, and that next session their wishes might be defeated, and the subject be put off again? He advised the right hon. gentleman to think seriously of the inference that the public would draw from such equivocal conduct.

Sir W. Dolben wished that a proper system of government might be settled, as soon as convenient, for the province of Canada, but thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated sufficient reasons to induce the Committee to postpone the consideration of the subject till next session. He thought this delay more likely to be attended with good than evil, and as to any intention in ministers to take away the benefit of the Habeas Corpus from the Canadians in the interim, he did not see ground for the slightest suspicion of such an intention.

Mr. Fox said, that he perfectly understood the way in which the worthy baronet conceived the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have meant what he had said, and were that really the case, and the right hon. gentleman was sincere in meaning that the matter should be effectually dis cussed next session, would remain contented; but the right hon. gentleman had, in fact, said no such thing; all that he had said amounting to nothing, and for ought the Committee knew, they might not be permitted to go into the effectual discussion of the subject, with a view to settle a form of government for Canada, for ten years to come. The right hon. gentleman's fair and candid declaration, that although he had no objection to the [VOL. XXVII.]

resolution that would be proposed, of taking the matter into consideration next session, yet that he did not hold himself pledged then to go into it, if he should not, by that time, have received what he should deem sufficient information, to enable ministers to make up their minds upon it, was clearly and plainly declaring to that Committee and to the public "We have come to a resolution, but we mean nothing by it." In order to prove this, Mr. Fox asked, what in fact would be the whole of the effect of the resolution, under the explanation of the right hon. gentleman, that he desired not to be understood as considering himself to be pledged by it; was it any thing more than obliging the House, as it were to recognize the subject, and bring it in early in the next session? Was there any necessity for the House to come to a resolution, in order to produce that effect? Undoubtedly there was not; because he and every private individual member could by a motion force the House to do as much. When the House came to a resolution of their intention to take a matter into their serious consideration, early in a subsequent session, what was their meaning? Most obviously not to hold out an empty delusion to the public, but to give them an assurance, that, in the next session, they would go into a full consideration of the subject, and either determine to take such steps as should appear to the wisdom of the House to be necessary, or to let it alone altogether, if that should upon mature discussion appear most proper. He desired to know if every man who had voted for the resolution relative to the Slave Trade had not given his vote, under the idea that the subject was to be gone into fully next session, and some decision come to? On that occasion the right hon. gentleman had not thought proper to accompany his argument with any such explanation as he had that day given; and he was wise in avoiding so to do, because the right hon. gentleman well knew the people who had petitioned would not have borne such a fallacious mode of conduct, which held out to them hopes on which they could place no reliance. Mr. Fox contended, that if the practice was adopted of coming to positive and express resolutions, accompanied at the time with explanations, on the part of the minister, that rendered those resolutions perfectly nugatory and insignificant, that House would lose the confidence of the [2 M]

people, and they would obtain the character of being the most paltry, prevaricating, false, equivocal, and delusive House of Commons that ever sat within those walls. Mr. Pitt contended, that the right hon. gentleman had endeavoured again and again to cavil at his declaration, that he begged not to be considered as pledged to any specific point next session, other than the consenting to resume the consideration of the question, and to hold that declaration out to the Committee, as a reserve of the right of doing nothing next session upon the subject. It was a little extraordinary, after he had so fully explained his meaning, that the right hon. gentleman should persist in misrepresenting his declaration. He had once more stated, that ministers had not before them sufficient information to enable them to make up their minds, as to what ought to be the measure proposed by them to the House, on a subject confessedly of great delicacy and importance, and therefore he felt it his duty to desire the Committee to defer its consideration till next session. He had reason to expect farther information from lord Dorchester and in all like lihood it would arrive before next session, and then the House would have the subject fully before them. But suppose that not to be the case, and that the farther information should not arrive; would not the House be obliged to resume the consideration? Would they not then have all the information ministers had received submitted to them; and would they not be thereby enabled to form a judgment, whether it would or would not be proper to proceed farther, before they had obtained more information? With regard to the Slave Trade, nothing the right hon. gentleman had said, or could say, no at tempt to excite a clamour, no warmth nor affectation of feeling, should induce him to advance a syllable on the subject, beyond the extent to which he had thought it right to go on Friday. In the state of the session, and under the circumstances of the case, he had deemed it advisable to postpone the discussion of the subject till next session, when the House had resolved to enter upon it; but, notwithstanding the use which the right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to make of his having, to prevent the possibility of mistake declared, that if, next session, he should feel that ministers were not then in possession of all the information which they should think it their duty to have before them, on the

subject of what was the fit and most proper form of government for Canada, he would still advise the House to wait for farther information, and then to decide accordingly. For, what would the House have to do upon the subject next session? First, to judge from the information that should be before them, what would be most advisable to be done; next, when it would be most advisable to do it; thirdly, how it would be most advisable to carry it into effectual execution; and lastly, whether it would be more advisable to do nothing, but let the matter remain where it was. Each of these considerations would be necessary objects of discussion, and would any man say, that objects so essential ought to be prejudged or predetermined? It would be an insult to the understanding of mankind, to urge any such pretence. Mr. Pitt said, he had considered the subject of the Slave Trade much more minutely than the right hon. gentleman, and had dedicated more hours to its examination. He trusted, therefore, that he understood the subject fully, and being perfectly aware that it was one of the most delicate and important that ever called for the attention of parliament, he wished it to be brought under discussion with all the advantage of the House having complete information before them respecting the propositions that it might be deemed expedient to submit to their consideration.

Mr. Fox expressed his satisfaction at having gained somewhat by what he had last said, although at the same time what he had gained was not much. The right hon. gentleman had thought proper to go one step farther in his last speech than he had gone before. He had in that speech said, that, at any rate, whether or not he received the information he expected against last session, the House would be bound by the resolution to be moved by his hon. friend, to resume the consideration of the subject; that they would then have all the information that government were in possession of stated to them, and would be thence enabled to judge, whether it was proper to proceed, or to wait for still farther information. This was certainly something, though not a great deal; because, as he had before contended, it was in the power of any individual to force the House to agitate the subject, and having once brought it under discussion, the House could not avoid coming to some decision or other. It was evident that the

bring him to justice under every difficulty that could be thrown in his way. With regard to the expenses incurred, they were trivial, and not worth mentioning, in comparison with the greatness of the object to be attained. That part of them which related to the sums paid to council, for their assistance,were so far from being enormously large, that they were, on the contrary, shamefully inadequate to the services performed; he never knew counsel so ill paid for such services; and when he made that declaration, he begged the House to consider him as speaking to a subject, of which he had some knowledge from experience.

Mr. Sheridan observed, that he felt some difficulty to avoid being astonished, that the hon. manager should have thought the hon. gentleman's anxious desire to watch over and scrutinize the expenses of the prosecution of Mr. Hastings, matter of amazement, when it was considered how frequently the hon. gentleman attended to the expenditure of the public money, and how peculiarly watchful he was over the grants of large sums moved from time to time by the Treasury! He considered the true motive of the hon. gentleman to be no other than this; he had made his motion with a view to afford a ground for the appearance of idle paragraphs in the newspapers, insinuating that the managers were putting the public to an enormous and unnecessary expense, and by that means to create a wish in the public for the total discontinuance of the trial. The services already performed were ordered by the committee of managers, under the authority of that House. If the House chose, they might resolve that no counsel should, in future, be allowed the managers; if so, it would be necessary for them to move, that the attorney and solicitorgeneral, together with the master of the rolls, be added to the committee of managers. Or, if the House thought proper, they might resolve, that the managers should pay the expenses of counsel themselves. In that case he hoped the House would have the goodness to add sir Sampson Gideon, and some others of the most wealthy members to the committee. With regard to the charges incurred by fees to counsel, it was considering the assistance afforded, shamefully low; so much so, that he would venture to say no counsel employed in a great public prosecution had ever been so ill paid before. He read

from the votes the resolution to pay above 4000l. for defraying the charges incurred by the prosecution carried on against sir Thomas Rumbold. He said, he had no doubt but that charge had been fairly and justly made out, but he had never heard, that the House had thought it necessary to institute a minute inquiry into the various items of the account. In the present prosecution, the managers were responsible for ordering the services, but the manner in which those services were performed, was to be decided on elsewhere; and therefore, as that part of the business which was the only one the hon. gentleman could refer to, lay between the solicitors for the prosecution, and the lords of the Treasury, the hon. gentleman instead of giving the newspapers a fresh subject for unwarrantable insinuations, if he meant any thing by his motion, would, he hoped, when the account should be produced, ground upon it another motion, that the counsel employed by the committee of managers should in future be better paid.

Mr. Hussey wished to have it understood, whether the managers were responsible for the charges incurred by the prosecution or not.

Mr. Fox answered, that the managers were, undoubtedly, responsible for the services ordered, but not for the manner in which those services were performed. It lay with the Treasury to examine, check, and control, the expenditure of the money issued to defray the charges incurred by the prosecution. The managers had the authority of that House to take such measures, and do every thing that appeared to them to be necessary to conduct the prosecution in the most effectual manner; but, even in the exercise of the powers given them by that authority, they were very ready to pay great deference to the advice of those, who, from their situations, must necessarily have great weight and authority in that House.

Mr. Pitt said, that the managers certainly were authorized to order any services which they thought necessary, and it was not in the power of the Treasury to countermand those services, their province being merely to take care that the charges for those services were not enormous and unreasonable. In order to do this, when the proper time came for the solicitors to the prosecution to state the particular items of their accounts, they certainly would take the best means in their power, by referring the accounts to