Address.] To the Address of the Commons, the King returned this Answer: "Gentlemen; "I thank you most cordially for this loyal and dutiful address. Your warm expressions of congratulation, and the signal proofs which I have repeatedly received of the sincere and affectionate attachment of my faithful Commons, and of the nation at large, have made an impression on my mind which no time will ever efface." Debate on the Navy Estimates.] March 17. The report of the Navy Estimates were brought up. On the resolution, "That 20,000 seamen be employed for the service of the year 1789," Mr. Dempster said, that being of opinion that nothing but the strictest economy in time of peace could enable this country to retrieve her resources, and support herself when involved in a war, he could not help thinking the voting 2,000 additional seamen an extravagant waste of the public money. Without the strictest economy it was impossible to expect that the people could be relieved from the heavy load of taxes with which they were burthened; much less to continue appropriating a million a year to the diminution of the public debt. He had listened with great attention to his Majesty's speech, and it had given him infinite pleasure to learn that we were in perfect peace, and "that his Majesty had the satisfaction of receiving from all foreign courts continual assurances of their friendly dispositions to this country." That being the fact, he saw no reason for voting the additional 2000 seamen; for surely if, as had been stated, about 1300 hundred were wanted for the East-Indies, and a few additional hundreds for the Mediterranean, they might, in a time of profound peace, be spared out of the 18,000 voted as they were last year. If the additional vote were for one year only, it would certainly lessen his objection to it. Mr. Pitt said, that no man could carry his notions respecting economy farther than he did. He wished on all occasions to save money for the public, where it could be wisely saved; but the best economy that any country could practise in time of peace, was to keep up such a force, and take such measures of defence, as would be most likely to render the peace permanent, and insure its duration. It was with this view, that the additional 2000 seamen had been proposed, because while the country kept up a moderate but a necessary force for its defence, it was the less likely that any other country would be tempted to disturb its tranquillity. Mr. Hussey agreed, that the best economy was not to grudge a little necessary expense, if the House could be satisfied, that the money asked for, would be well laid out. But, had the House any information before them to enable them to pass a judgment, that the money they were now called upon to vote, would be well laid out? If that could be declared to their satisfaction, he should not grudge the additional expense. The navy was with him, and with the public, a favourite service; but at the same time he would ask the right hon. gentleman whether he could say, in looking forward to the finances of the country, that this additional establishment could be provided for without imposing additional burthens on the people, or without endangering the annual provision of a million to be applied in diminution of the national debt. That was the time for asking questions, because it was in the beginning of their votes of supply, that the House ought to be satisfied that they were not laying a foundation for entailing additional and unnecessary burthens on the people. The Resolutions were then agreed to. Debate on the Army Estimates.] The report of the Army Estimates being brought up, General Burgoyne rose, and commented on the conduct and management of the army. He began with remarking that the army estimates were not exactly the same as last year, inasmuch as the two regiments of Life Guards, which constituted the household troops, had been reduced and altered. That the alteration might be proper, he had no doubt: but there was one circumstance that struck him as very extraordinary; indeed so much so, that he could scarcely believe it, and that was, with regard to the situation of the reduced officers. He had heard that they not only had their pay, but that they were allowed the power of selling their commissions. This power struck him as so singular, that whether it was considered economically or militarily, he could not reconcile it to any principle of policy or reason. By giving every officer a power of selling his commission, every officer had a power | he recurred to the taking away lord Loof entailing the perpetuity of his pay on thian's regiment, and declared that he the country; because, whenever a gen- was convinced the measure never origintleman, holding one of those commissions, ated in his Majesty's mind. The maxim found his constitution fail, he had nothing of the constitution was, that the king could to do but to sell, and his successor would do no wrong; but he would carry it farcome into the nonentity of an ensigncy, ther, being convinced that he could think lieutenancy, or whatever rank the com- no wrong, and that his Majesty never did mission might give. The general con- an ungracious thing but when he was tended that any gentleman, who wished imposed upon. The late earl of Chatham, to see a favourite son in a red coat, might he remembered, had observed, that in the purchase one of these cornetcies for him, Act of Settlement there was a clause to and then a lieutenancy, and so on up to oblige the minister to sign his name to the high rank, which the son might thos reach advice he gave the sovereign, and had without ever seeing a soldier, or knowing emphatically said, "Would to God, that what a firelock was. He ridiculed this was still the rule!" Who it was that idea of making officers who would be saved gave his Majesty the advice upon which from the danger of all the fatigues, broken lord Lothian's regiment was taken away, bones, &c. which those who went into ac- he knew not; but it was the universal opitual service encountered. If the case nion, that the noble marquis had lost his were as he had heard it was, nothing, he regiment on account of his vote in parliasaid, could save the country the expense ment. The late earl of Chatham, he well caused by the existence of these commis- remembered, had reprobated the exercise sioners but apoplexies and sudden deaths. of such unconstitutional influence, when The general next adverted to the taking general Conway and colonel Acourt had away lord Lothian's regiment, which he their regiments taken away for a similar considered as disgracing that officer. reason. After paying great compliments They had before heard, that there ought to the army, and going so far as to say, to be in the military department some that any merit he might have as a minister, person who should be considered as the was owing chiefly to the spirit and valour military minister, some ostensible person of the officers, the late earl of Chatham responsible for every step taken in the mi- had declared that "he regretted that they litary department, and that person ought, should hold their commissions by any in his mind, to be the commander-in-chief. other tenure than their military services." He enlarged on the advantages that would The general dwelt on this, which he said, result from such an appointment. The he was pretty certain were the exact words military minister, in point of patronage, of the noble earl's expression: he hoped, would, he said, be of important use. He therefore, the right hon. gentleman was would be the informant of the King, as not only the inheritor of the noble earl's to the propriety of every promotion; he talents, but the inheritor of his sentiments. would be the man to bring military merit to the foot of the throne, and to draw it forth from places where ministers never looked for it, namely from the field of actual service. He took notice of the system of promotion adopted last year with respect to the army in India, and said, he wished he might be a false prophet; but he feared it might tend to raise murmurs and discontents in the army, and thus ma-sibility. With regard to a commander-interially injure the service. He spoke of the awkward predicament in which it might place some officers of great reputation, mentioning colonels Stuart, Elphinstone, Floyer, and other respectable names, of high character, who, at the end of a long and glorious war, in which they had commanded armies, might have to be under those whom they had themselves commanded. Having urged this pointedly, The Secretary at War declared, that though he was not professionally bred, yet he did not hesitate to stand up in his official situation and say, that he conceived it was the notion of our government that he was in some sort officially responsible for every measure taken in the military department, and he assured the House, he never would shrink from that respon chief, whenever the country required it, such an officer should be appointed; but he could not agree with the hon. general that a commander-in-chief was absolutely necessary in time of profound peace. With regard to the situation of the reduced officers belonging to the household troops, nothing had been done respecting it, but at the earnest recommendation of those distinguished persons who had held not scruple to declare, that his dismission was no disgrace, but warrantable, even if it were on the grounds of offensive political conduct. The marquis of Lothian was to be considered as having acted in a double capacity; not merely militarily as an officer of cavalry, but in a civil capacity, as an officer of the court, personally employed about his Majesty as a state attendant. Might not his Majesty, then, choose his own servants, and for any reason that he thought good, dismiss them from their attendance on his person? The noble marquis did not object to the particular regiment that was offered to him, as if it were liable to any imputation; nor in fact was it liable to any imputation whatever. He saw not, therefore, how any disgrace could apply to the noble marquis merely on account of his being removed from one regiment and offered another; no disgrace could attach in his case, any more than in the dismission of any other of the King's servants; and surely, if the King should, even on a motive of caprice, or because he disliked the figure of a particular person in his service, and wished that such a figure might not stand close behind him, or at his elbow, choose to dismiss him, who should say he ought not to exercise his undoubted prerogative? He by no means intended any personal allusion in what he had said, but merely to put the case on the broadest basis. the command of the reduced regiments; and as to the perpetuity of their commissions, he could not agree to that fact, because they could be provided for by promotions, or vacancies made by death. With regard to the marquis of Lothian's regiment, he had not imagined that would have been brought under discussion in that House, because all the principles of the constitution agreed, that it was the undoubted prerogative of the Crown to appoint or dismiss officers in the army as the Crown should think proper, and if every appointment or dismission was to be made the subject of parliamentary notice, the prerogative might as well not exist. But exclusive of this, he could not help differing from the hon. general's opinion, both as to the fact he had stated, and the inferences he had drawn from it. The hon. general had said, that all mankind had agreed, that the marquis of Lothian had been dismissed the service. He must answer from such grounds as he had in his possession, and those grounds did not warrant any such proposition. The marquis had not been dismissed; what had happened, came within the case of an officer removed from one regiment to another, and nothing more; nay, the ground on which the noble marquis had declined the regiment that had been offered to him, proved that it was so. Whatever difficulty, therefore, there was in the arrangement, it arose from the noble marquis himself. Sir George referred to the case of colonel Acourt and general Conway, who though they had lost their regiments, had not been dismissed the service. Colonel Phipps said, it was at all times painful to enter into discussions that referred to the personal conduct of any man; but the characters of officers were so peculiarly tender, that he could not help being surprised to hear such strong expressions used, on such a subject by a military man; and more especially when he considered who that military man was, and what his own conduct had been. All that the hon. general had said relative to the household troops, he considered as merely calculated to introduce his real purpose with the better grace, and to create an appearance, that what the hon. general had chosen to say respecting the marquis of Lothian, was not the sole object for which he had risen. With regard to the case of the marquis of Lothian, he would go farther in considering it than the right hon. gentleman behind him, and would [VOL. XXVII. ] Mr. Fox said, he would not be deterred from saying a few words, with regard to the army in general, by any such declaration as that made by the hon. gentleman who spoke last, namely that he meant merely to introduce an allusion to the circumstance of the marquis of Lothian's having his regiment taken from him. Every member of that House, had not only an undoubted right to make his observations on the conduct of the executive government at all times; but it was his peculiar duty so to do, when the sums necessary for the services to be carried on by a particular department, was the subject of the vote under consideration. He would not go into a minute discussion of the army estimates, because the singular circumstances of the times were his justification for not mentioning again, what he had debated last year; but he should contend, that their having been discussed then, was no reason whatever, why they should not be discussed over again, were it not that the pressure of time occasioned by the cir [4 P] cumstances, to which he had alluded, rendered it improper. He remained, how ever, in the same opinion, in respect to the augmentation of the last year, and of its application to the West Indies. He thought both the one and the other unnecessary and objectionable; and, in regard to the mode and manner of the latter, that it was peculiarly unwise and impolitic. Having said thus much of the army in general, he would proceed to speak to the affair of the marquis, of Lothian's dismission from his regiment. He declared, it had never been his habit to be intimately acquainted with lord Lothian; and if he were to discuss the word "disgrace," with a view to its attaching to the marquis in consequence of what had lately happened, he should undoubtedly agree with the hon. gentleman who spoke last, that the marquis had suffered no disgrace in point of character, because an unimpeachable character could not be disgraced by any minister, nor even by the King himself. Disgrace of character could only arise from a man's actions, and the judgment of the public passed upon those actions. But to say that the marquis of Lothian had not been marked with the disfavour of his Sovereign, and disgraced as far as that could disgrace him, was impossible. The hon. gentleman and the right hon. Secretary of War, had both contended, that it was merely a removal of an officer from one regiment to another, and that such a removal was no disgrace. The hon. gentleman had himself a company in the guards; if he were to be moved to the command of a company in a marching regiment, would he not think it a disgrace, professionally considered, and could he be satisfied with the idea, that the figure of another officer was more agreeable to the King? At least, though the hon. gentleman might not find the difference of emolument arising from the alteration worthy his notice, he would feel the removal to be a disfavour, which almost amounted to a disgrace. Mr. Fox took notice of what had been said respecting the equality of rank in respect to the command of different regiments, and contended, that though the rank was the same, yet, when the emolument was materially different, it could not be possible to doubt whether a removal from the one to the other was a disgrace or not. With regard to the noble marquis's having declined accepting one regiment, and being willing to accept another, the cause was obvious. One regi ment had been commanded in person by his father at the battle of Culloden, and it was natural to suppose, that the marquis, for a variety of reasons, might wish to have that regiment rather than any other, if he was to be removed. Mr. Fox ridiculed the idea of the marquis being to be considered as a person in a civil capacity, and as an officer of the household; and the strongest proof that ministers themselves did not so consider him, was, their leaving his dismission in the power of the Regent, when they were passing a bill, distinguished for their endeavours to consider and describe the household to as unlimited an extent as possible. God forbid that he should dispute the King's prerogative of appointing or dismissing any officer of the army, without assigning any reason whatever! He hoped that undoubted branch of the royal prerogative never would be disputed; and he was glad to find no one of his friends had that day called it in question. He would do justice to the other side of the House also, and admit that they had not defended their conduct by resting on the prerogative, but had resorted to a distinction which he did not think could be supported in argument. He declared he could not perfectly allow what had been said to have been the grounds for taking away the regiments of general Conway and colonel Acourt; much less that there was any thing at all similar or analogous between the dismis sion of the marquis of Lothian and the offering him another regiment, and the case of his hon. friend (general Burgoyne.) The difference was only this, the marquis of Lothian was dismissed from his regiment and offered a less lucrative situation; his hon. friend had resigned his regiment. He certainly afterwards accepted a regiment of infantry, but then it was to be considered that he accepted it from his own friends. With regard to the dismission of the marquis of Lothian, there were circumstances, that not only placed it in no very favourable view, but circumstances that, in his mind, placed it in a very unfavourable point of view. His Majesty, after having recovered from a severe and afflicting illness, was in a staté that necessarily called for repose. It was therefore thought proper, and he was ready to say very wisely so thought, that no heavy business, or matters that might occasion much agitation of mind should be submitted to his consideration; and yet, in the very moment when repose was necessary, his Majesty had been made the instrument of party views, and inspired with sentiments of political vengeance. He had been obviously used as the engine of ministerial revenge and punishment. Mr. Fox declared, that if ever there was an act of the minister, and not of the Crown, it was in the present instance. He said, it happened to consist with his knowledge, that his Majesty had not had an opportunity of knowing, by listening to the necessary explanations, what were the motives and grounds on which certain opinions and conduct had proceeded, and therefore nothing of what had passed ought to have been stated to the royal ear. This opinion of his had been corroborated in other places; he had himself heard from the highest authority, that every thing that had taken place on the unfortunate subject that had occupied the attention of parliament in the preceding part of the present session, ought to be buried in absolute oblivion. He had heard this doctrine laid down in high and distinct terms. And, comparing that language with the circumstance to which he was alluding, he could not but feel the violent contradiction between the language of ministers and their conduct. He declared, he should ever contend, that military officers ought not to be removed for their votes in parliament. No officers but those who held civil situations ought to be removed for any such reason. Suppose, for instance, a change of administration had taken place, and the noble lord holding the other gold stick (lord Amherst) had been dismissed; would not his Majesty's ministers have thought it an extraordinary sacrifice to the party views of opposition? Let it be recollected, that the present reign had been a reign of great contention, when powerful oppositions had existed in every part of it, and some honourable men of the highest rank in the military profession, had taken part in such oppositions to the measures of government. It had been, highly to the credit of the government, the uniform practice, that the political conduct of such military men should not affect their professional situation. That laudable abstinence from the exercise of power had, in the present instance, been departed from, and at a time, when it could not have been departed from without agitating the royal mind improperly. It seemed as if the determination was, with respect to the military, to hold to them this language; "You may vote against government, and the interests, as we think them, of his Majesty, but you shall not support the interests of the Prince of Wales." Whether this picture of the present politics of Great Britain be advantageous to hold out to foreign nations, he would leave it to the judgment of the public to decide. His hon. friend had argued, that there could be no minister for the military so fit as a commander in chief. He agreed with him completely, but declared he was glad to hear, that they had for the first time learnt, that they actually had such a person as a responsible military minister, The Secretary at War, he owned, had come forward manfully, and acknowledged his responsibility; and when he said this, he supposed, though the right hon. gentleman had said, he was officially responsible, he meant not to take advantage of that word as a shield for his responsibility. With regard to his hon. friend's idea, that one of the royal family would be most fit to be a commander in chief, he agreed as to the propriety of the argument; the late events and discussions had shown the branches of the royal family in the most favourable point of view, and had proved to the public, that their great and illus trious rank was exceeded by the greatness of their minds, and the number of their virtuous qualities. It had evinced their moderation of temper, their affection to their father, and their firm and zealous attachment to the constitution; but it could not be conceived that ministers would admit of any one of the royal family being appointed commander in chief, since it was clearly a part of their system to represent to his Majesty that his own family were his bitterest enemies. The Report was then agreed to. Debate on the Ordnance Estimates.] March 18. The House went into a Committee of Supply, to which the Ordnance Estimates were referred. On the motion, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that a sum, not exceeding 218,017l. 6s. 4d. be granted to defray the extraordinaries of the office of ordnance for the service of the year 1789," Sir Grey Cooper expressed his astonishment at so large a sum being moved to defray the charges of the ordnance extraordinaries. It exceeded, he said, the estimate of 1786 by 111,000%., and that of last year by 40,000l. It was necessary, |